bad 5-day water fasting experience

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Tincup
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Re: bad 5-day water fasting experience

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Stavia wrote:A thought: soooo all my biomarkers are excellent but I'm not exactly what anyone would call reed thin. My BMI is 24, I'm quite muscular, a little belly fat but not much. I feel good.
Maybe very lean isn't necessary?
The true test will be with the normal eating pattern. Obviously what you are day in & day out makes a lot more difference than where you are at the end of a periodic fast. Mosley's returned to normal after his 4 day fast. Then he started the 5:2 and it dropped in half again. He thought the 5:2 was doable long term, so planned to keep it up.

Hope you feel better soon. Flu is not fun!!
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Bernie
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Re: bad 5-day water fasting experience

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Final readings the morning after the 5th day of the fast.

BK 1.2
BG 4.3
HRV 55
HR 71

I woke up this morning after a night free of cramp so the K tablets clearly worked. I felt great this morning although I didn't feel very warm which I interpreted as thyroid or hormonal related. I have to a do a lot of 'body listening' in the absence of blood panels, etc. I therefore decided to call an end to my FMD. Yesterday evening I did a very good 50m weights session, I felt good and strong. I'd welcome anyone's interpretations of my markers but here's mine:

1. Compared to previous fasts I found this easier and less stressful
2. When I ate I packed my meals with as much low-cal nutrient-dense fibre-rich food as I could muster to a) make the meals more enjoyable b) improve the fibre content for my gut biome c) deal with candida, leaky gut and autoimmunity (turmeric, herbs, coconut oil, beef stock). I'm intolerant to a lot of carbs so I couldn't eat the prescribed amount as per the FMD guidelines. I substituted with protein mainly so I could minimise lean body losses.

....more to follow


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Re: bad 5-day water fasting experience

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Nicely done Bernie:)
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Re: bad 5-day water fasting experience

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Stavia, in the CR world your IGF-1 would be considered essentially perfect: near, but not at or below the reference range. If you can test again after a bit (2 weeks) of normal eating that would be great.

The research around IGF-1 is complicated of course. There are surprising correlations with higher IGF-1 and the superlongevous. But I place my money on low-normal levels, if achieved via diet, being ideal, but maybe it would be good to allow the levels to go up a bit in old age, via increased protein-intake (which itself -- increased protein-intake at older ages -- is now thought to be a good thing by some researchers).

Bernie, when I was recently tested for ALS (that's how bad my cramps/fasciculations were...) the neurologist said -- once the diagnosis of "benign fasciculation syndrome" was reached -- I should try taking a multi-B before bed. I just bite off a bit of one of those cheap ones with oodles of multiples of the RDA, so that, with the bit I bite off, I'm getting maybe 70% or so of the RDA. (I don't like the idea of flooding my body with an overdose of B) I think it's helping!!

I've also gained a huge amount of weight (16 kg over the course 8 or so months), which could also be helping, but I don't think so.
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Re: bad 5-day water fasting experience

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Gilgamesh wrote:Stavia, in the CR world your IGF-1 would be considered essentially perfect: near, but not at or below the reference range. If you can test again after a bit (2 weeks) of normal eating that would be great.

The research around IGF-1 is complicated of course. There are surprising correlations with higher IGF-1 and the superlongevous. But I place my money on low-normal levels, if achieved via diet, being ideal, but maybe it would be good to allow the levels to go up a bit in old age, via increased protein-intake (which itself -- increased protein-intake at older ages -- is now thought to be a good thing by some researchers).

Bernie, when I was recently tested for ALS (that's how bad my cramps/fasciculations were...) the neurologist said -- once the diagnosis of "benign fasciculation syndrome" was reached -- I should try taking a multi-B before bed. I just bite off a bit of one of those cheap ones with oodles of multiples of the RDA, so that, with the bit I bite off, I'm getting maybe 70% or so of the RDA. (I don't like the idea of flooding my body with an overdose of B) I think it's helping!!

I've also gained a huge amount of weight (16 kg over the course 8 or so months), which could also be helping, but I don't think so.
Thanks Gilgamesh, that's good to know.

My cramps went away as soon as I took the K pills. I'm definitely a convert to them now!

Btw, I was reading research that IGF1 is beneficial when it's elevation is localised as it is after weight training for example. Systemically elevated levels on the other hand are not so good!


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Re: bad 5-day water fasting experience

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Gilgamesh wrote: The research around IGF-1 is complicated of course. There are surprising correlations with higher IGF-1 and the superlongevous. But I place my money on low-normal levels, if achieved via diet, being ideal, but maybe it would be good to allow the levels to go up a bit in old age, via increased protein-intake (which itself -- increased protein-intake at older ages -- is now thought to be a good thing by some researchers).
G,

My friend who is hugely into bioidentical hormone replacement (he mitigated his very severe post-polio syndrome with this and goes to all the medical conferences for this), says there are data showing the very old doing well at >300 IGF-1 levels. The other thought is differentiating between chronic IGF-1 levels and acute. I recall heavy lifting and HIIT exercise will acutely spike IGF-1. In the rodents, the ones who don't respond to IGF-1 have ~2x life expectancy. I asked Gundry about data on increased protein at older ages being better. His take is that older people have poor digestion and this can be mitigated by eating cleanly - for example his low lectin diet. Certainly from a cancer perspective, high IGF-1 isn't a good thing. I pay attention to the IGF-1/cancer relationship as dad diet from Multiple Myeloma & mom had Waldenstrom's Macroglobulinemia for at least 15 years, though it wasn't her cause of death.
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Re: bad 5-day water fasting experience

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Congrats on concluding your fast, Bernie! Please let us know if you think it resolved/improved any of your underlying GI issues.

Stavia, so sorry you're not feeling well. Nancy Drew sends her love. XO
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Re: bad 5-day water fasting experience

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George and Bernie, thanks for your thoughts. Excellent points about acute alterations in IGF-1: it definitely goes up during certain times of stress (like working out), and that, and that it can go up when needed, is a good thing!
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Re: bad 5-day water fasting experience

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Final thoughts!

I'm sat here writing this feeling the best I've felt for ages so that tells me that the FMD has worked for me. Here are a few more details/observations:

1. Compared to previous fasting protocols this was both less stressful and more beneficial (measured subjectively by how I feel and objectively by lower BG)
2. My energy levels and cognition were on point the whole week. This was really important because I was finalising a research proposal for submission.
3. Supplementation with potassium stopped the leg cramps I'd experienced on days 3&4.
4. My blood became more viscous towards the end of the week which probably explains why my HR increased. I drank when I felt thirsty and I felt hydrated however the evidence of my blood viscosity would suggest I wasn't unless of course the change in blood viscosity was a homeostatic adjustment to being in a fasted state? This requires further investigation but it is well documented that low carb diets reduce water retention so the homeostatic adjustment hypothesis may have legs.
5. During the refeed I learnt that I am allergic to eggs but not to nuts.
6. Overall, my appetite was balanced. There were occasions I felt hungry but not to the point where it became a distraction or an obstruction to continue with the FMD.
7. Candida became evident from day 3. Apparently, yeasts can also respond positively to fasting so fasting alone won't deal with this issue

Compared to other fasting protocols the FMD was a lot less stressful and easier to comply with. Given how I currently feel, I will definitely be doing it again probably on a monthly basis. Based on what I have learnt I will also change my normal diet so that I skew more of my total weekly calorie consumption towards the weekend so that the resulting weekday caloric deficit will elevate blood ketones and optimise cognition


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Re: bad 5-day water fasting experience

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I just finished a 7 day fast and thought I’d share my experience. It was much easier than I thought, although not without “hiccups.”

I agreed to this upon the suggestion of my husband, GeorgeN, but not enthusiastically. I was aware of the benefits of fasting, but 7 days seemed, well, extreme. I committed to 5 days, agreeing to 7 if I felt okay. It’s over now but I could have easily gone longer.
My fast consisted of morning coffee, bone broth, tea, water, and sparkling mineral water as well as my usual supplements. I maintained basically the same activity and work out routine. Per my activity watch, my daily steps were slightly reduced because I was writing Christmas cards, wrapping gifts, and other sedentary Christmas activities, but I still maintained full days, in fact the book (discussed later) advocates staying busy to keep your mind off the fact you’re fasting.

Although fasting is supposed to help prevent Alzheimer’s, my motivation extended further. A recent gynecological exam found a mass indicating a possible cancer diagnosis (results of imaging still TBA). Being familiar with the work of Dr. Thomas N Seyfried who wrote “Cancer as a Metabolic Disease: On the Origin, Management, and Prevention of Cancer” my husband suggested doing an extended fast. Dr Seyfried’s research concludes that fasting can limit and prevent growth of cancer tumors that are glucose-dependent. By lowering blood glucose and elevating blood ketones, you target the tumor’s energy metabolism. I wanted to get my Seyfreid glucose ketone index down to the goal of less than 1.
Anyone can fast, but no one should attempt a multiday fast without at least reading up first (some should have medical supervision). I did not just jump into this. I’ve been (unintentionally) working up to an extended fast like this through my Alzheimer’s prevention efforts:

**I have been practicing intermittent fasting, going about 16 hours of fasting a day, no eating from after dinner until lunch. My insulin has lowered to levels that my reaction to visual and olfactory stimuli has been reduced, although not completely eliminated. This intermittent fasting discipline has also helped me get used to dealing with feelings of hunger. FYI, my last blood test in June had my insulin at 3, glucose at 80 and HbA1c at <4.2, IGF-1 at 75.

**I’ve been in mild ketosis for almost 2 years now, eating a low-carb, moderate-protein, high-fat diet. Being in ketosis teaches your body to “dig down” to the harder-to-reach fat “storage tank” instead of the readily accessible glycogen “sugar” stores. It’s easier to fast when your body isn’t craving carbs to fill the sugar stores.

**I’ve been working on my gut biome since May after being administered antibiotics and pain killers for my foot surgery. I approached this by eating raw veggies, fermented food, taking probiotics and some supplements. My thinking being that in addition to the advantages of a good gut biome, bad bugs asking to be fed create feelings of hunger.

**At our ApoE4.info get together at the Ancestral Health Symposium this past August, I attended an informative presentation that provided some very compelling information on the many health benefits of fasting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9Tfxmiydcw . The benefits seem to be especially beneficial as one reaches later years.

**Just before starting the fast I read the book “The Complete Guide to Fasting: Heal Your Body Through Intermittent, Alternate-Day, and Extended” by Jason Fung and Jimmy Moore for pointers on effective fasting and what to expect. I will refer to this book throughout my write up as “the book.”


Day 1
Morning ketones 1.0, glucose 98
Performed strength workout without issue, but this was like any other workout day since this was the first day of my fast and I always workout before eating.
Felt my usual hunger throughout day, but the book said feelings of hunger are not really hunger pangs, i.e you don’t really have to eat, but rather the desire to eat is a hormonal occurrence and it comes in waves. This was true for me, the hunger didn’t grow with time, in fact I went to bed with no hunger
The book cautions against store bought broth so we made bone broth in the slow cooker which we kept going throughout the fast and it smelled so good! Luckily, my pre-fast “training” has acclimated me to “powering through” olfactory and visual stimuli.
I had a blood draw in the morning, the lab results:
Test ------------------Pre-fast Result-----Acceptable range
Glucose, Serum-----91 mg/dL-----------65-99
Insulin------------------3.1 uIU/mL--------2.6 – 24.9
IGF-1 -------------------59 ng/mL-----------46-172
Magnesium----------6.1 mg/dL----------4.2 – 6.8
Estradiol --------------12.3 pg/mL--------<6.0 – 54.7

Day 2
I woke up feeling “normal” as far as hunger and energy, but the book said day #2 is typically the toughest, so I put a bit of coconut oil in my coffee as a preemptive measure (the book allows a small amount of fat if you need help. And yes, I know coconut oil isn’t advised for ApoE4s, but we have some left over in the house and it’s got to go.) This was only day I did this on the fast. But hunger really wasn’t much of a problem during the day, day 1 was toughest in that regard.. In fact I almost forgot to eat some bone broth for lunch before heading out the door because I wasn’t hungry

As the day progressed, however, I did have a little bit of light headedness, waned energy, lack of focus, and irritability.

Day 3
Morning serum ketones 7.4, glucose 43, major difference since day one, wow the fasting was working! Reached Seyfreid glucose ketone index goal of 1 or less, Yay! BP 112/68
But my energy in morning was even less since the end of day 2, really listless, so I started supplementing twice a day with magnesium, potassium and sodium along with some bone broth to recharge my electrolytes. I felt much better after that, even to the point where I felt like I was on a gentle mental stimulant. I went on to a normal day full of activities.
I had some waves of hunger and a desire for our “ritual” of dinner but drank cinnamon tea (appetite suppressant according to the book) and sparkling mineral water and it all passed.

Day 4
Morning ketones 4.6, glucose 41, feeling fine.
Also had a morning bowel movement, the book said that even though you aren’t eating, there’s still waste in the body, but without eating, the system slows down, so not unusual for the delay.
I’d been stepping on our “fancy” Withings body composition scale first thing every morning and have been noticing an elevated heart beat. I do have tendency to have light-headedness/heart racing upon standing up when losing weight. Also the book says metabolism increases during fasting, maybe that was why. But I wasn’t concerned because the elevated heart rate did not sustain and according to my activity watch my resting HB was at mid-50s. Regardless, this side effect was one of my (few) negative experiences with the fast.
After our “dinner” of bone broth, I joked, “I’m stuffed.” However, I really did feel full! Nevertheless, from a mental standpoint I would have liked to eat, but not because I needed to. At this point I had a general feeling that the fast was getting old, even though it wasn’t hard. Perhaps my mental low point.

Day 5
Morning ketones 6.7, glucose 38
To avoid the energy slump I experienced late day 2/early day 3, I was continuing my supplementation with magnesium, potassium and sodium. I should note I was already maintaining my usual supplementation regimen which includes magnesium, so I was adding to that. I hadn’t gotten my lab results yet, so I had no idea what my RBC magnesium level was (should have taken it sooner) and apparently I “oversupplemented” the magnesium. Too much magnesium causes loose bowels and even after 4 days of fasting I still had “stuff” in my system and the magnesium found it! I throttled back on the magnesium, and the negative consequences eventually abated, nevertheless I experienced gastrointestinal distress until the end of the fast. This was my most negative experience of the fast, but it was (unintentionally) self induced.
My morning’s scale reading indicated a 6 pound loss since day one of the fast. The purpose of fast was not weight loss, but I was not complaining. Although I am of “normal weight” I am at the upper limit and I have pounds to lose. Especially since, per the above referenced video, fasting tends to target visceral fat (bad fat) with consequent reduction of TNFalpha and IL-6 inflammation markers. This seemed to be reflected in my waist measurement which was ¾ of an inch smaller than at the beginning of the fast.
I was feeling much better psychologically on this day because I was experiencing success.

Day 6
Morning ketones 6.3, glucose 41
Good day. Went to the gym for my twice a week strength workout class. Did the entire workout without issue, in fact, my coach commented that she could tell I was getting stronger. Ha-ha, she didn’t know I was on day 6 of a fast. I did feel I had to rest a little more than usual between some exercises to let the HB settle down, but I did my entire challenging exercise routine without issue, no feelings of weakness, or degradation of strength.

Day 7
Morning ketones 5.8, glucose 64
Last day, not hungry, feeling good, not even excited about breaking the fast, I felt I could go on. This was probably the best, easiest day of the fast. Go figure.
But as a continuation of the day before, I really wanted to pop some gum in my mouth to deal with this myuck feeling in my mouth. It dawned on me I was experiencing a common issue when fasting – a coating of the tongue. Lore says this reflects the bad stuff in the body working its way out and ideally one should fast until the tongue is clear, which could be weeks. Needless to say, I’ll save that for another day.
I went to get a blood draw in the afternoon for an “after” comparison of test results. They should arrive in about a week, I’ll share when available.
We ate a light dinner, our last meal was dinner 7 days prior. I wasn’t ravenous and made a point of eating slowly so as not to shock the system. It was nice to eat, but nothing special. End of fast.

Morning after
Morning ketones 5.5, glucose 75
My weight went up .4 of a pound from yesterday, but according to our “fancy” Withings body composition scale, I experienced a total weight loss of 5.5 pounds, a 1.4% drop in fat percentage, a .7 drop in BMI, and a 1.4% increase in muscle mass since the beginning of the fast. What I found curious was my Pulse Wave Velocity went up during the fast. A higher pulse wave velocity score indicates increased stiffness of the arteries. While I had been tracking in the lower range of normal to upper level range of optimal before the fast, during the fast I went up to the higher range of normal. My waist measured ¾ of an inch smaller and hips were .1 of an inch smaller.
I usually don’t eat breakfast, and I didn’t even think about it, I wasn’t hungry. I went to my strength class, felt really good and had one of my best workouts. So thus far no after affects.
In looking back on my fast, I feel the bone broth was key to keeping the experience positive. It was remarkably satisfying and helps keep the electrolytes up. I’m not confident it would have been as easy, or that I would have even stuck with the entire 7 days, with just a water fast.
Last edited by TheresaB on Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-Theresa
ApoE 4/4
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