My version of a Ketogenic Diet

Alzheimer's, cardiovascular, and other chronic diseases; biomarkers, lifestyle, supplements, drugs, and health care.
User avatar
Tincup
Mod
Mod
Posts: 3199
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:57 pm
Location: Front Range, CO

Re: My version of a Ketogenic Diet

Post by Tincup »

deborahk wrote: Here's her take on the ketogenic diet:
https://www.beingpatient.com/ketogenic-diet-alzheimers/
From the link: "A ketogenic diet is high-fat, no-carb and some protein"

I take issue with this. A keto diet has limited carb intake with adequate protein. The amount of carb intake that is ketogenic is very individual. Also once a person is "keto" or "fat" adapted, the carb intake that they can consume and still create ketones may be different than what it took to get them adapted to begin with.

I'm an example. I keto adapted in 2009 on a 20 g carb/day diet.

In March, did a 14 day diet diary with a gram scale:

Item Average Minimum Maximum
Energy (kcal) 2167.46 1800.55 2495.41
Carbs (g) 122.11 87.89 179.42
Fiber (g) 51.30 44.36 66.14
Protein (g) 52.04 34.61 69.84
Fat (g) 175.04 142.54 212

During this time, my ketones ranged from 0.7 to 2.0 mmol/L. This is a much higher level of carbs than most in the keto community think is required to be in nutritional ketosis. Part of this may be due to the fact that I also fast a lot. I fast 5 consecutive days out of every 14 and on eating days eat in a 2 hour window, fasting 22 hours.

On the other hand some people who are very metabolically compromised must stay with limited carb intake, again very individual.
Tincup
E3,E4
User avatar
Julie G
Mod
Mod
Posts: 8906
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:36 pm

Re: My version of a Ketogenic Diet

Post by Julie G »

Thanks for sharing, Deborah. I was unclear from the interview exactly WHAT type of diet would be adopted in the POINTER study. Were you able to figure that out from the interview?
Alternative fuel may only be maximally effective at certain stages of the disease, so as a younger healthy person with no cognitive impairment, is ketogenic the best approach? We don’t know that. It may not be. But when your normal fuel supply is not efficiently and effectively being utilized by the brain, you’ve got to resort to alternative fuels. When the normal supply glucose is not being effectively utilized, this may link with stage-end disease. That brings us back to insulin resistance. As we get older, our bodies become more insulin resistant. All of us do. We become less efficient in utilizing the glucose that we consume.
I agree that there’s not one correct diet for each stage of the disease process, but she’s missing the fact that E4 carriers, as early as age 20 (perhaps earlier), demonstrate a reduction in cerebral glucose utilization in the same regions of the brain as Alzheimer’s patients. This is well documented with Eric Reiman (Banner) and Richard Caselli (Mayo) leading the way. She’s absolutely correct that this condition worsens with insulin resistance, but also with polycyclic ovarian disease, menopause, and simply aging. FWIW, many of us (myself included) are using a keto version of the Mediterranean Diet to specifically address our neuronal fuel shortage.
Orangeblossom
Senior Contributor
Senior Contributor
Posts: 802
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:11 am

Re: My version of a Ketogenic Diet

Post by Orangeblossom »

I have been following a similar diet as this and had some bloods in the Spring-


Blood pressure: 128 / 81
HBAC1: 35
Fasting blood sugar: 4.1
Cholesterol Total: 5.2 mmol/l (HDL 2.6)

The GP was pleased with the HDL and blood sugar readings.

Have recently introduced 16:8 fasting and going to have more tests in Jan. It's helping me lose weight too and BMI has gone from 29 to 27 (and lowering).

In terms of recipes I keep things simple but I like the Michael Mosely blood sugar diet recipe book which i use sometimes it cooking, (his website is here for that diet) https://thebloodsugardiet.com I'd recommend that for some simple ideas. His approach is based in diabetes management but work also work here as is a moderate low carb / med style approach. I also like the diet doctor website and there is a section there on fasting with Dr Jason Fung. https://www.dietdoctor.com
deborahk
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:00 pm

Re: My version of a Ketogenic Diet

Post by deborahk »

Hi @JulieG!

You raise some very good points in the context of Apoe4 carriers and I didn't go into that level of detail with her. Let me send her an email with your points and see what she has to say. I don't think that Pointer is looking into one specific diet per say but rather elements of diet that can contribute to better cognitive health. She talks about the benefits of the Mediterranean which is what most experts do but I was encouraged that ketogenic diet is also on her radar.

Will revert back!
User avatar
Julie G
Mod
Mod
Posts: 8906
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:36 pm

Re: My version of a Ketogenic Diet

Post by Julie G »

Thanks, deborahk. My guess is that specifically addressing this aspect of our gene would be helpful. I also think it's encouraging that the keto diet was on her radar. I'm very excited about the POINTER Study and thrilled that dietary/lifestyle strategies are finally being studied in a RCT here in the U.S.- progress.
dewey
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2021 12:53 pm

Re: My version of a Ketogenic Diet

Post by dewey »

Hi, Julie. I'm new here. I found out recently I'm 4/4. I'm wondering if your outlined diet on this thread has changed significantly since this post? I am having a hard time getting enough calories in 2 meals to sustain workouts without losing weight. I'm averaging about 1300 cals (and forcing myself to eat 3 meals within my 8 hour window) to get to the 1300.
User avatar
Julie G
Mod
Mod
Posts: 8906
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:36 pm

Re: My version of a Ketogenic Diet

Post by Julie G »

dewey wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:58 pm Hi, Julie. I'm new here. I found out recently I'm 4/4. I'm wondering if your outlined diet on this thread has changed significantly since this post? I am having a hard time getting enough calories in 2 meals to sustain workouts without losing weight. I'm averaging about 1300 cals (and forcing myself to eat 3 meals within my 8 hour window) to get to the 1300.
Welcome, Dewey. This is a very old post, but still pretty fairly represents my diet. I've since have been honored to collaborate with Dr. Dale Bredesen and his wife Dr. Aida Lasheen Bredesen, helping to write The End of Alzheimer's Program, where I've provided details for the diet called KetoFLEX 12/3. You can see a summary here.

I'm sorry that you're struggling to get enough calories. As you're probably aware, being underweight is a risk factor for cognitive decline and a host of other frailties including sarcopenia and osteopenia. I'd strongly encourage you to focus on gaining weight and muscle. It's especially important to make sure that you're getting enough protein. IMO, being weight stable and strong is more important than being in ketosis, but I do believe that you can achieve both at the same time. Please keep posting. We'd love to learn more about you.
dewey
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 12
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2021 12:53 pm

Re: My version of a Ketogenic Diet

Post by dewey »

Julie G wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 3:37 pm
dewey wrote: Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:58 pm Hi, Julie. I'm new here. I found out recently I'm 4/4. I'm wondering if your outlined diet on this thread has changed significantly since this post? I am having a hard time getting enough calories in 2 meals to sustain workouts without losing weight. I'm averaging about 1300 cals (and forcing myself to eat 3 meals within my 8 hour window) to get to the 1300.
Welcome, Dewey. This is a very old post, but still pretty fairly represents my diet. I've since have been honored to collaborate with Dr. Dale Bredesen and his wife Dr. Aida Lasheen Bredesen, helping to write The End of Alzheimer's Program, where I've provided details for the diet called KetoFLEX 12/3. You can see a summary here.

I'm sorry that you're struggling to get enough calories. As you're probably aware, being underweight is a risk factor for cognitive decline and a host of other frailties including sarcopenia and osteopenia. I'd strongly encourage you to focus on gaining weight and muscle. It's especially important to make sure that you're getting enough protein. IMO, being weight stable and strong is more important than being in ketosis, but I do believe that you can achieve both at the same time. Please keep posting. We'd love to learn more about you.



Julie,

Thank you so much for the response. Also, thank you for the link. I do have the book and just getting into the diet. I fell into this thread and found the example of your diet very helpful... but realized it was an older post.

Right now I'm at 19 BMI. So, I am still at a healthy weight. I just know I need to be careful at this point ... and trying to figure it all out. It's a lot to take in.

I appreciate the work you're doing. I'm a 4/4 and thankful for everyone that is helping to give us the best opportunity for bright and healthy futures.

Lora
WaveRider67
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 5
Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:58 am

Re: My version of a Ketogenic Diet

Post by WaveRider67 »

MarcR wrote: Fri Mar 07, 2014 3:25 pm
- I supplement with magnesium (400 mg) and potassium (1 g - yes, that's ten 99 mg capsules daily) for the same reason that I consume extra salt.
Hi MarcR, I know this is a very, very old post but was curious how you determined the amounts of Mag. and Pot. to supplement? And, what variations of these minerals you used? like Mg Citrate, Mg Taurate, etc.

Thanks
User avatar
MarcR
Mod
Mod
Posts: 1915
Joined: Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:28 pm
Location: Camas, Washington, US

Re: My version of a Ketogenic Diet

Post by MarcR »

WaveRider67 wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 12:00 pm Hi MarcR, I know this is a very, very old post but was curious how you determined the amounts of Mag. and Pot. to supplement? And, what variations of these minerals you used? like Mg Citrate, Mg Taurate, etc.

Thanks
I don't recall specifically. The magnesium dosage is what you'll see on supplement bottles. Potassium supplements are limited per capsule because of an FDA concern about small bowel lesions. This NIH fact sheet explains that and much more.

Today I supplement with 200 mg of magnesium in the citrate form and no potassium. I'm not troubled by cramps, but I'm also not restricting carbohydrates much.
Post Reply