Breakthrough on Deep Sleep Issue

[Naposghost]

I wanted to share a recent breakthrough. Until I got an Oura 2 ring over a year ago, I didn't realize how extremely poor my deep sleep was. It has not been uncommon for me to get zero to 10 minutes of deep sleep for weeks and weeks at a time and rarely has it been over 30 minutes.

My doctors and I have been trying to figure out how to improve my deep sleep as it is so critical in helping with prevention against getting Alzheimer's (APOE4/4). Fantastically, one of my doctors is Bredesen Protocol certified and the other is Shoemaker Protocol (CIRS) certified. They work wonderfully together.

The recent breakthrough in deep sleep involved two things.

1) I was diagnosed with CIRS* (Chronic Inflammatory Response Syndrome) and started taking Cholestyramine and Welchol binders to remove mycotoxins. Long story as to my exposures to moldy places but suffice it to say that we determined that I am among the 25% of the population who is genetically predisposed to develop CIRS and I've had multiple exposures to buildings with water intrusion. As the CIRS doctor explained...

Neuroinflammation, as a result of exposure to water damaged buildings, is a major source of sleep dysregulation. Clearing the mycotoxins with binders is likely playing a significant role in your improved sleep.

2) I mentioned my sleep issues to my primary doctor and also expressed concern that I had restless legs. She immediately sent me to a vascular doctor who determined through testing that, even though I have no visually apparent varicose veins, I have vascular/vein issues impacting circulation in both legs. She said that restless legs are a common symptom of the problem (who knew?)! She had me start wearing compression stockings during the day. The result has all but stopped my restless legs. There are other procedures that can be done but this was a great start. I learned that restless legs can impact deep sleep from my Oura 2 Ring as it measures "restlessness" and that measure has dropped along with improvements in deep sleep.

Those two changes have, in the past 4 weeks, increased my deep sleep from 0-10 minutes / night to often over an hour and one time I actually had over two hours. Amazing!

I still have to do all of the other things religiously that are helping my sleep - like daily exercise, saunas and turning screens off 3-4 hours before bed, but this recent change for the better is very encouraging.

*https://www.survivingmold.com/

[floramaria]

I wanted to share a recent breakthrough. Until I got an Oura 2 ring over a year ago, I didn't realize how extremely poor my deep sleep was. It has not been uncommon for me to get zero to 10 minutes of deep sleep for weeks and weeks at a time and rarely has it been over 30 minutes....
Those two changes have, in the past 4 weeks, increased my deep sleep from 0-10 minutes / night to often over an hour and one time I actually had over two hours. Amazing!
I still have to do all of the other things religiously that are helping my sleep - like daily exercise, saunas and turning screens off 3-4 hours before bed, but this recent change for the better is very encouraging.

Congratulations on your success with getting more deep sleep. Your story demonstrates how complex the issues underlying poor sleep may be. Thanks for sharing the successful unraveling of your sleep issues!

[circular]

2) I mentioned my sleep issues to my primary doctor and also expressed concern that I had restless legs. She immediately sent me to a vascular doctor who determined through testing that, even though I have no visually apparent varicose veins, I have vascular/vein issues impacting circulation in both legs. She said that restless legs are a common symptom of the problem (who knew?)! She had me start wearing compression stockings during the day. The result has all but stopped my restless legs. There are other procedures that can be done but this was a great start. I learned that restless legs can impact deep sleep from my Oura 2 Ring as it measures "restlessness" and that measure has dropped along with improvements in deep sleep.

Great work on two items that turned the dial a lot for you.

Would you mind sharing how the vascular doctor identified the vascular/vein issues and what they were? This looks important for anyone who may have restless legs to rule in or out. I've had it very infrequently. In my case I found that getting up and stretching my hip flexors took care of it. In other words, it's been sitting at a computer too much!

[Hboroughs]

Fascinating information regarding restless legs. I find myself dealing with that on days of heavy exercise. I had a varicose vein repaired about 10 years ago and now wonder if there isn’t more of an underlying issue. Compression gear seems an easy idea to try! Thank you very much for sharing this.

[MarcR]

I learned that restless legs can impact deep sleep from my Oura 2 Ring as it measures "restlessness" and that measure has dropped along with improvements in deep sleep.

It sounds as though the Oura 2 estimates deep sleep by tracking "restlessness" as a surrogate marker. One of the general issues with surrogate markers is potential disconnects between the markers and the actual condition being estimated. In this case, I wonder if the Oura 2 underestimated your deep sleep because of involuntary RLS movements that were in reality not actually affecting your sleep. In other words, would a brain scan have shown you exiting (or failing to enter) deep sleep in conjunction with RLS spasms?

From the overall account of your deep sleep issue, it's not clear to me if there were accompanying symptoms and/or a direct diagnosis or if the entire issue was addressed on the strength of the Oura 2's estimate. Do you have any other details to share regarding symptoms and/or confirming diagnoses before and/or after addressing your RLS?

Related, I wonder if the connection between your treatment with cholestyramine and welchol binders and the improvement in your Oura 2 deep sleep estimate is due to causation or correlation?

[Naposghost]

Would you mind sharing how the vascular doctor identified the vascular/vein issues and what they were? This looks important for anyone who may have restless legs to rule in or out.

I was sent to a vein specialist. They do an exam using a sonogram tool. They had me stand on a special platform and the technician did a variety of things including determining the time it takes for blood to traverse up my leg. In my case, it was determined that blood that travels up the leg to the hip area via a deep vessel is leaking back down the leg in an exterior vein. The treatment is to effectively destroy that exterior vein. This condition was in both legs.

I have yet to have the procedure as they indicated that it will cause inflammation so I'm working with my Bredesen and CIRS doctors to figure out the right time to proceed. Meantime, I'm using the compression stockings.

Hope this helps.

[Naposghost]

I learned that restless legs can impact deep sleep from my Oura 2 Ring as it measures "restlessness" and that measure has dropped along with improvements in deep sleep.

It sounds as though the Oura 2 estimates deep sleep by tracking "restlessness" as a surrogate marker. One of the general issues with surrogate markers is potential disconnects between the markers and the actual condition being estimated. In this case, I wonder if the Oura 2 underestimated your deep sleep because of involuntary RLS movements that were in reality not actually affecting your sleep. In other words, would a brain scan have shown you exiting (or failing to enter) deep sleep in conjunction with RLS spasms?

From the overall account of your deep sleep issue, it's not clear to me if there were accompanying symptoms and/or a direct diagnosis or if the entire issue was addressed on the strength of the Oura 2's estimate. Do you have any other details to share regarding symptoms and/or confirming diagnoses before and/or after addressing your RLS?

Related, I wonder if the connection between your treatment with cholestyramine and welchol binders and the improvement in your Oura 2 deep sleep estimate is due to causation or correlation?

Good thoughts Mark. I have had similar questions about the Oura 2. I would very much like to have a brain scan to substantiate the accuracy of the Oura 2 in estimating deep sleep and the correlation with RLS. I had a home sleep study done but it was very high level and didn't measure sleep levels that I could tell.

I have not yet had the procedure done to address RLS because it will cause a significant amount of inflammation. The practitioner told me that, since I am already experiencing inflammation (ankle areas), it would likely cause more than normal inflammation. My Bredesen/CIRS doctors have suggested that I hold on the procedure until the CIRS markers I have can be mitigated.

My CIRS doctor did say that the binders could also be contributing the sleep improvements. When changing more than one thing at a time, it is difficult to precisely pinpoint cause and effect.

[Whatnow]

I have recently learned (through a functional med doctor) about a flavonoid combination of Diosmin (never heard of it before) and hesperidin that is used in Europe and I think the US to treat varicose veins and also hemorrhoids by supposedly improving health of the veins. It's also used to treat venous ulcers on the legs and feet. There is even a prescription version of it called Daflon. I am currently reading about it and considering it. Has anyone else heard about it? Supposedly it also reduced swelling in the legs.