Any thoughts on lecithin (phosphatidylcholine)?

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floramaria
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Re: Any thoughts on lecithin (phosphatidylcholine)?

Post by floramaria »

sunrise125 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:49 am Hi - Is the lecithin powder definitely more beneficial for phosphatydl choline supplement than the liquid form?
I have been taking liquid sunflower lecithin and need to reorder and want to get what is most beneficial for my 3/4 status.
thanks in advance
hi sunrise125, I don’t know much about supplementing with either form of lecithin,. I was using the Phosphatidylcholine from ProdromeSciences. Have not experimented with lecithin yet as I am holding off on all forms of PC supplementation until after my upcoming consultation with a Health Coach at Prodrome about recent test results.

Maybe Tincup has ideas about the benefits of the two different forms of lecithin. I’ll quote him so he’ll be notified and follow up here. (quoting someone is accomplished by clicking the quotation marks in the upper right hand side of the person’s post. It is very useful, because it generates a notification to the person being quoted. Otherwise, it is only by luck that someone would stumble onto your post like I did today, especially in a thread that has been dormant for quite awhile.)

Tincup wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:59 pm Now Supplements, Sunflower Lecithin with Naturally Occurring Phosphatidyl Choline and Other Phosphatides, Powder, 1-Pound - New
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00 ... UTF8&psc=1
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Re: Any thoughts on lecithin (phosphatidylcholine)?

Post by Tincup »

floramaria wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:39 pm
sunrise125 wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:49 am Hi - Is the lecithin powder definitely more beneficial for phosphatydl choline supplement than the liquid form?
I have been taking liquid sunflower lecithin and need to reorder and want to get what is most beneficial for my 3/4 status.

Maybe Tincup has ideas about the benefits of the two different forms of lecithin. I’ll quote him so he’ll be notified and follow up here. (quoting someone is accomplished by clicking the quotation marks in the upper right hand side of the person’s post. It is very useful, because it generates a notification to the person being quoted. Otherwise, it is only by luck that someone would stumble onto your post like I did today, especially in a thread that has been dormant for quite awhile.)
Tincup wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 4:59 pm Now Supplements, Sunflower Lecithin with Naturally Occurring Phosphatidyl Choline and Other Phosphatides, Powder, 1-Pound - New
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00 ... UTF8&psc=1
We are taking the NOW product as it was suggested by Dayan Goodenowe. Other than that, I don't have any information to compare to other products.
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Re: Any thoughts on lecithin (phosphatidylcholine)?

Post by sunrise125 »

Thank you so much for the reply on Lecithin I have both powder and liquid form and am taking daily with Krill oil and fish eggs.
All the best
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Re: Any thoughts on lecithin (phosphatidylcholine)?

Post by Maria4/4 »

circular wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 12:14 pm
nmlss wrote:These studies got me interested:
https://stm.sciencemag.org/content/13/583/eaaz4564
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12637119/
https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/1 ... OBTYey94qY

On the other hand, some studies show increased mortality/cancer risk:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27826198
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27773818
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2643856
http://jcmtjournal.com/article/view/1532
http://www.nature.com/articles/srep40802
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3604886

It seems like getting the RDA (550 mg/d for men) consistently can be tricky. Eggs is on of the most abundant sources, but one would need to eat at least 4 every day:
https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Choli ... fessional/

Would love to know what everyone else thinks!
I found that my TMAO is higher than the normal range on choline supplements but not when I stopped them. YMMV. While I'm not 100% sure whether I need to worry about TMAO (it's high in fish afterall), I did stop the choline supplements. I have a genetic need to address choline issues, so I eat two eggs a day. I have no idea whether I'm doing enough or whether the supplement was harmless if not helpful despite the higher TMAO when I was on it.
Hi Circular,

I've been taking phosphatidylcholine for 5 months.

Does your TMAO levels increase with phosphatidylcholine? I read that it happens when we take Choline sumplements, but not with phosphatidylcholine, so I am curious about your results (in my country they don't mesure it).

I follow dr Andrew Huberman and he recommends taking garlic capsules to decrease TMAO levels (he takes them because he also takes Alpha-GPC regularly, a Choline supplement).

Another question: I have seen that a lot of people on the forum that follow dr Bredesen's protocol take Citicoline instead of phosphatidylcholine. Do you know what are the advantages of phosphatidylcholine?

Thanks for your help,
Maria 4/4
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Re: Any thoughts on lecithin (phosphatidylcholine)?

Post by Lulu »

Hi Maria,

I have recently had issues with choline supplements, and the dangers of increased TMAO from supplements and diet appear to be real, I'm finding.

Supplements such as alpha GPC, or any choline supplement, carnitine, lecithin especially, and even krill oil (apparently rich in choline) can increase TMAO (and I've taken all of these, yikes!). Animal protein in the diet, especially beef, fish, eggs and dairy are also contributors to increased TMAO, according to the reports I'm reading. I've now quit all choline, carnitine and krill oil supps that I've been taking for the time being, and I'm seeing a cardiologist next week for a consultation, testing (including TMAO) and diet and supplement recommendations. He is a well known holistic cardiologist who encourages a more plant based diet.

Please see the following study that implicates alpha GPC in the risk of stroke.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8613599/



And this article from the Cleveland Clinic:


https://www.cleveland.com/healthfit/201 ... s_f_2.html


Hazen's group found that three substances formed from the breakdown of lecithin in the gut -- choline, TMAO and betaine -- all had a "dose-dependent" association with the presence of heart disease in about 1,900 patients who came in for a cardiac evaluation.

That means that the more of each of the molecules the patients had in their blood, the more likely they were to have heart disease, including peripheral artery disease, coronary artery disease and a history of heart attack. The association held even when the researchers took medication use and traditional heart disease risk factors such as smoking, high blood pressure and physical inactivity into account.

Kind of scary!!

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Re: Any thoughts on lecithin (phosphatidylcholine)?

Post by Maria4/4 »

Hi Lulu,

Alpha GPC is indeed well known to increase TMAO levels.

Regarding the other Choline products, I read an article that may interest you. The Cleveland Clinic (responsable for the 2011 study made with mouses that you indicated) released another study in 2021, made with humans, that concludes the following:

"Ten years ago, researchers at The Cleveland Clinic published one of the first studies proposing a link between TMAO, dietary choline, and cardiovascular disease risk,5 but have just published a new study that offers some important new information about choline from eggs, one of the best food sources of choline available. The new study published in The American Journal of Medicine explored the difference between consuming eggs, a whole food source of choline, and taking supplemental choline on TMAO production, and concluded “… it may be more prudent to recommend natural sources of choline, like eggs, over supplements.”6

In this study of healthy adults, TMAO concentrations increased from baseline to end-of-study in the participants who consumed a choline bitartrate supplement alone or in combination with whole eggs or egg whites; however, there was no change in TMAO concentrations in the participants who consumed eggs alone or for those who took supplement of phosphatidylcholine, a form of choline found in eggs."

You can read the full article here: https://www.incredibleegg.org/articles/ ... -eggs-tmao

Nevertheless, if you can test your TMAO levels, I think it would be great. Please share with us the results.

Thanks,
Maria 4/4
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Re: Any thoughts on lecithin (phosphatidylcholine)?

Post by Lulu »

Hi Maria,

Thanks for the quick response! Regarding your comment that the 2011 article was a study on mice, this is not true. The article states that the doctors at the Cleveland Clinic found that 1900 patients who came in for cardiac evaluation were more likely to have artery disease, coronary artery disease and heart attack in direct correlation with the amount of choline, tmao and betaine in their system, in a "dose dependent association" Meaning the more molecules the patient had of choline, TMAO and betaine, the more likely they were to have heart disease. (Lecithin breaks down to choline, TMAO and betaine in the body). This should be extremely concerning for anyone who wants to supplement with lecithin / choline.

Also, the other study that I pointed to indicates that over a 10 year period, there were 46% more strokes in people who used alpha GPC vs those who did not. This is also very concerning.

I can not say if eggs raise TMAO in the body, but there is a lot of evidence that certain supplements do raise TMAO in the body, and given my recent symptoms (that were scary to say the least) I would urge everyone who wants to supplement with choline or choline raising supplements, to be aware of their TMAO level and keep watch over it.

Perhaps I was just supplementing with too much, I can't say at this point, hoping to learn much more from my doc appt.
I will share the results of my test here, I think it's such important information. We are all different, but since we share a common genetic component, I think it's good to share info about that which may be harmful.
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Re: Any thoughts on lecithin (phosphatidylcholine)?

Post by Lulu »

Hi Maria!

That article you shared is certainly interesting, but I have a concern. The median age of the participants in the study was 28, not exactly a high risk group. And although TMAO spikes in the body, it also increases over time, so I'm thinking TMAO levels likely become more problematic in middle age.

Here is another study, from the American Heart Association, about eggs:

Cardiovascular Harm From Egg Yolk and Meat: More Than Just Cholesterol and Saturated Fat

https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/JAHA.120.017066

What Are the Harmful Constituents in Eggs?
The problem is not the egg white, which is largely the source of the protein that is the reason many people consume eggs; it is the yolk. Besides the very high cholesterol content (237 mg in a 63 g egg; almost as much as in a 12‐ounce beef burger), egg yolk is high in phosphatidylcholine, which is converted by the intestinal bacteria to trimethylamine. Absorbed trimethylamine is oxidized in the liver to trimethylamine N‐oxide (TMAO), which caused atherosclerosis in an animal model. Among 4007 patients referred to the Cleveland Clinic for coronary angiograms, those with TMAO levels in the top quartile had a 2.5‐fold increase in the 3‐year risk of stroke, myocardial infarction, or vascular death.16 The other dietary substance that is largely responsible for the formation of TMAO is carnitine, mainly from red meat.
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Re: Any thoughts on lecithin (phosphatidylcholine)?

Post by SusanJ »

This issue is probably more nuanced than choline = TMA = heart disease. I posted this article in another thread, but thought it would be useful to this discussion.

Bottom line with any associative study is we don't understand what folks are eating besides meat or eggs (or anything else for that matter). Perhaps the key is how their diets are helping the microbiome do its job. SAD diets are often low in different types of fiber (and SAD is likely the diet of many of those 4007 patients at the Cleveland Clinic) but even Paleo/low carb diets could be missing some important fiber components to keep certain bacteria like Bifidos and Roseburia happy.
Remember that one of the favorite foods of Bifidobacteria is resistant starch? And that Roseburia also likes to munch on carbohydrates like beta-glucans? Maybe we shouldn’t be surprised that this study showed a significant decrease in these important bacteria among both Paleo groups.

Likewise, the relative abundance of Hungatella was significantly higher among the Paleo subjects. After adjusting for age, gender, stool frequency, and body fat, Hungatella abundance was significantly negatively associated with grain intake among the study’s participants, and was also significantly negatively correlated with Bifidobacteria and Roseburia abundance. Although we don’t have a lot of information about Hungatella in relation to human health (not yet, anyway!), we do know that some species originating from the genus Hungatella are associated with choline consumption and TMA production, including at least one species identified in this study. The researchers speculated that some components of grains and/or whole grains either interfere with Hungatella’s TMA production or prevent it from dominating in the gut. And, these components might not be resistant starch, since neither Hungatella nor TMAO was significantly associated with resistant starch intake!
https://www.thepaleomom.com/paleo-resis ... h-heeding/

I'm working my way through some of these issues after doing a Genova Effects Comprehensive Profile last year and found that my Bifidobacterium and Roseburia numbers were way too low. I was eating a low carb diet at the time (50-100 grams/day) and as pointed out in this article, that low carb, non-starchy vegetable approach is probably not working for me and my microbiome.
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Re: Any thoughts on lecithin (phosphatidylcholine)?

Post by Lulu »

Very good information to consider, Susan, thank you! I'm going to look into doing the Genova Profile, and see where I stand. I do eat a very healthy diet with lots of fiber, so I assume I would have a good report, but you just never know till you test.

Right now, I'm just hoping I haven't done too much damage with these supplements. I was having occasional issues with equilibrium and nausea (and some facial tingling), and it was happening after popping my supps, so that is why I connected the supps with the symptoms. Very scary. I see the cardiologist today, thankfully. I'm also reading that people can be increasing their TMAO levels with diet and supplements and be completely asymptomatic for a long time. Also scary.

Thanks again for you input, very helpful.

Lulu
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