Endurance athlete... how do I fuel?

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Morgdeth
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Endurance athlete... how do I fuel?

Post by Morgdeth »

Hello all. I'm new and learning quickly about and how to manage my Apo34.

I'm a 51 year old female and have been a vegetarian for most of my life and that included a big serving of carbs.

I'm on week 5 on my new no carb diet, eating chicken and fish and feel great.

I'm also an ultra runner and have completed several 50ks including last May I ran the Grand Canyon rim to rim to rim in 13 hours and fueled that with carbs. Now that I'm carb free... I'm at a loss for my fuel plan.

Are there any ultra runners or marathon runners out there that can share how you are fueling now?

As you know this is effing scary as hell to find out that one carries the gene or genes!

I'm glad to know, I have some control with my diet and exercise. I'm watching my mom spiral into what we think is Lewy Body form and all I can say is ...wow....and yikes.

Thank you for the support and this community!
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Re: Endurance athlete... how do I fuel?

Post by nerdymel23 »

Morgdeth wrote:Hello all. I'm new and learning quickly about and how to manage my Apo34.

I'm a 51 year old female and have been a vegetarian for most of my life and that included a big serving of carbs.

I'm on week 5 on my new no carb diet, eating chicken and fish and feel great.
Hello Morgdeth, welcome to the forum!

What amazing accomplishments you've shared with our community. Your marathon journey is very inspiring. I'd like to applaud your courage for diving in and making a switch in dietary changes during all the running success. I'm glad you are feeling well with the changes. I'm hoping to get some experienced runners to reply to this topic. In the meantime, there is a section in the comprehensive Wiki on Exercise - Types, Lengths, and Benefits with a deeper science connection to APOE4s.

Let me think about other resources with that level of training. From my knowledge, I know the trick is keeping it nutrient dense. You want to keep fueled but not overly deplete the nutrients you need.

I know it can be scary at first to find out about carrying the variant and I'm sorry to hear about your journey with your mom. This community was created so that you don’t have to take this journey alone. Today there is a vast amount of evidence-based studies that reveal we are not a product of our genes and there are many ways to practice healthy lifestyle behaviors (exercise, diet, meditation, sleep hygiene)!

There is a wealth of information on this forum, enjoy exploring! If you haven't had a chance to view it, the Primer is a great place to get started. It's authored by a member physician who carries two copies of the APOE-ε4 allele. I would also recommend a quick Search using the search function tool in order to connect with like minded community members. You can find more details on using the Search Function Tool Here.

Let us know if you need further support!

- Melissa :)
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Tincup
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Re: Endurance athlete... how do I fuel?

Post by Tincup »

Morgdeth wrote: Are there any ultra runners or marathon runners out there that can share how you are fueling now?
Welcome Morgdeth.

My two cents:

I used to do things like the Pikes Peak Ascent, but this led to afib in me in 2004. I determined that chronic fitness was a big part of my path to afib (likely because of a genetic predisposition - I'm not saying this will happen to all endurance athletes). But I've been keto adapted since 2009 and have a sense of where you are coming from.

I was at this Peter Defty presentation in 2016. In short, Peter would adapt folks to run on ketones/fat. Then he would use carbs as a performance enhancing substance in race situations.

Most people, including myself, that have adapted to low carb/keto and are active will tell you there is a short term adaptation period of a few weeks where you get the ketone system out of "mothballs," but that positive adaptation can continue for many month or years. A lot of people worry about refilling glycogen stores on a LC/K diet, but after a while, it does not seem to be an issue for me, even for heavy weight lifting or HIIT (I'm 66).

In my case, an afib trigger is the product of duration and intensity. Hence I can do some short duration sprint interval training or HIIT, but for longer duration exertion, my rules are some form of Zone 2 (as described by Iñigo San Mílán here), / and a second podcast with Peter Attia here. {edit Sept 2022 another Iñigo San Mílán
podcast on Z2 & lactate} Phil Maffetone's MAF system, or just always nasal breathing as my limit. Almost everything I do is fasted from the day before: all day alpine skiing hard off pisté, all day rock climbing, or just my normal workouts. Running out of "gas" is never a problem, except when I haven't paid attention to my electrolytes, including sodium. Then I can feel a bit tired, but a bit of salt will instantly revive me.

One of my friends is Mark Cucuzzella MD. He's a runner who's done something like 30 marathons under 3 hours. He started training under Maffetone's system around 2000. He had an issue with insufficient insulin starting a few years later, though not full Type 1 diabetes. He went low carb and controls it completely through diet and exercise. He still is a beast on the runs, now in his mid-50's. In this blog post, he describes getting tested for fat burning and was up around 1.9 g/ minute. As a hospitalist doc, he also treats folks with T2 diabetes with diet, in West Virginia, not exactly Whole Foods country. He has gotten his whole hospital to change how it feeds people to accommodate this. His book.
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Re: Endurance athlete... how do I fuel?

Post by emdurance »

Morgdeth wrote: Are there any ultra runners or marathon runners out there that can share how you are fueling now?
Tincup wrote: Fri Aug 20, 2021 7:22 pm ....One of my friends is Mark Cucuzzella MD. He's a runner who's done something like 30 marathons under 3 hours. He started training under Maffetone's system around 2000. He had an issue with insufficient insulin starting a few years later, though not full Type 1 diabetes. He went low carb and controls it completely through diet and exercise. He still is a beast on the runs, now in his mid-50's. In this blog post, he describes getting tested for fat burning and was up around 1.9 g/ minute. As a hospitalist doc, he also treats folks with T2 diabetes with diet, in West Virginia, not exactly Whole Foods country. He has gotten his whole hospital to change how it feeds people to accommodate this. His book.
Hi there,

I am also APOE34 and new to this. I am 35 years old F runner and marathons are my favourite-- I don't want to give up running, although I would consider racing less frequently. I have run 5 marathons now, with 2:56 being my personal best but that was 4 years ago now. I am noticing cognitive changes after having my second child, under sleeping, and probably being nutrient depleted. I wondered if I had Long Covid and then learned about the link between Long Covid, APOE4, and began to question if I'm beginning to experienced APOE4 related cognitive changes.

I am finding the Gundry diet overwhelmingly restrictive with the elimination of lectins (no almond skin?! seriously! No grains AND no meat and no nightshades of course seems insane to me, but it was really the no almond skin that was my breaking point).

I did read Maffetone's Big Book of Endurance Training mentioned by @tincup and last cycle did pretty well incorporating some of his insights during base phase. I ate fewer carbs, mostly vegetables, and mostly ran under 140 bpm. I was training off very poor sleep with a young infant. As my race approached, I did switch to more carbs, including refined ones, and harder workouts, including running my long runs harder. I ran Boston in 3:12 but certainly took a ton of carbs.

I know within the competitive endurance community there is skepticism for being fat adapted, unless your interest is ultras. At high levels, diets that are nutrient dense but include carbs are preferred. However, we are not presumably at the highest levels, so what is best for us is the question for overall health. I know that Dr Stacy Sims is very against women running in a fasted state as she argues we are already fat adapted and it simply increases circulating cortisol, so I do worry about that.

I am trying to wean off my high glycemic foods (big sandwich gal here) and noticing some cognitive benefits right away. I think for me I will experiment with trying to keep in a fasted state for 12-14 hours each night and eating carbs like sweet potatoes or greener bananas before runs only.

For me, I plan on trying to follow Gundry's diet otherwise for a couple of weeks, run by effort on my workouts, and run try and mostly run very easy and sleep well.

Let me know where you landed with your approach, as I know this post is a little older! For a taste of Phil Maffetone he is a frequent guest on the Endurance Planet podcast -- might be worth checking him out there.
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Re: Endurance athlete... how do I fuel?

Post by Attabeth »

emdurance wrote: Wed Jul 13, 2022 8:58 am Hi there,

I am also APOE34 and new to this. I am 35 years old F runner and marathons are my favourite-- I don't want to give up running, although I would consider racing less frequently. I have run 5 marathons now, with 2:56 being my personal best but that was 4 years ago now. I am noticing cognitive changes after having my second child, under sleeping, and probably being nutrient depleted. I wondered if I had Long Covid and then learned about the link between Long Covid, APOE4, and began to question if I'm beginning to experienced APOE4 related cognitive changes.

I am finding the Gundry diet overwhelmingly restrictive with the elimination of lectins (no almond skin?! seriously! No grains AND no meat and no nightshades of course seems insane to me, but it was really the no almond skin that was my breaking point).

I did read Maffetone's Big Book of Endurance Training mentioned by @tincup and last cycle did pretty well incorporating some of his insights during base phase. I ate fewer carbs, mostly vegetables, and mostly ran under 140 bpm. I was training off very poor sleep with a young infant. As my race approached, I did switch to more carbs, including refined ones, and harder workouts, including running my long runs harder. I ran Boston in 3:12 but certainly took a ton of carbs.

I know within the competitive endurance community there is skepticism for being fat adapted, unless your interest is ultras. At high levels, diets that are nutrient dense but include carbs are preferred. However, we are not presumably at the highest levels, so what is best for us is the question for overall health. I know that Dr Stacy Sims is very against women running in a fasted state as she argues we are already fat adapted and it simply increases circulating cortisol, so I do worry about that.

I am trying to wean off my high glycemic foods (big sandwich gal here) and noticing some cognitive benefits right away. I think for me I will experiment with trying to keep in a fasted state for 12-14 hours each night and eating carbs like sweet potatoes or greener bananas before runs only.

For me, I plan on trying to follow Gundry's diet otherwise for a couple of weeks, run by effort on my workouts, and run try and mostly run very easy and sleep well.

Let me know where you landed with your approach, as I know this post is a little older! For a taste of Phil Maffetone he is a frequent guest on the Endurance Planet podcast -- might be worth checking him out there.
Hi emdurance,

Welcome to the site and thanks for your insight. I applaud you for your marathon running. I tried to take up running but realized HIIT and weight training are better for me, but I consider endurance athletes pretty amazing. You mentioned Dr Stacey Sims being against women running in a fasted state because it increases circulating cortisol. I do feel like running increased my cortisol and maybe that's why it made me feel so bad, but I didn't play around with diet and consider that my running in a fasted state at times would play a significant role in cortisol levels. Definitely something to consider.

Since you are new here I'd like to point you to some links that might be helpful as you explore further.
The Primer includes researched-based prevention strategies.

Some helpful tips and tricks to navigate the site include the How-to Guide. This guide is a great resource I found helpful when I started posting. It includes topics such as navigating the forum, private messaging, and searching. One great tip is using the quote (") button when replying to a post. Using the button will automatically alert the member of your response. It really helps to keep the conversation going.

If you would like to tell us more about yourself or interested in learning more about other members check out Our Stories.

As an endurance athlete you are no doubt very driven and determined. These strengths will serve you well as you continue to learn and improve your health. I hope you find this forum to be helpful and I look forward to hearing from you again.

Be well,
Beth
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Re: Endurance athlete... how do I fuel?

Post by emdurance »

Attabeth wrote: Wed Jul 13, 2022 5:26 pm Hi emdurance,

Welcome to the site and thanks for your insight. I applaud you for your marathon running. I tried to take up running but realized HIIT and weight training are better for me, but I consider endurance athletes pretty amazing. You mentioned Dr Stacey Sims being against women running in a fasted state because it increases circulating cortisol. I do feel like running increased my cortisol and maybe that's why it made me feel so bad, but I didn't play around with diet and consider that my running in a fasted state at times would play a significant role in cortisol levels. Definitely something to consider.

Since you are new here I'd like to point you to some links that might be helpful as you explore further.
The Primer includes researched-based prevention strategies.

Some helpful tips and tricks to navigate the site include the How-to Guide. This guide is a great resource I found helpful when I started posting. It includes topics such as navigating the forum, private messaging, and searching. One great tip is using the quote (") button when replying to a post. Using the button will automatically alert the member of your response. It really helps to keep the conversation going.

If you would like to tell us more about yourself or interested in learning more about other members check out Our Stories.

As an endurance athlete you are no doubt very driven and determined. These strengths will serve you well as you continue to learn and improve your health. I hope you find this forum to be helpful and I look forward to hearing from you again.

Be well,
Beth
Thank you Beth! This is very helpful.
Do you think I should reply again and "quote" the posts so people perhaps see my replies?
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Re: Endurance athlete... how do I fuel?

Post by Attabeth »

emdurance wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 7:18 am Thank you Beth! This is very helpful.
Do you think I should reply again and "quote" the posts so people perhaps see my replies?
Glad to help. One of the Moderators will go in and edit your posts to include the quotes so you don't have to take the time to do that. You can just use them going forward.
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Re: Endurance athlete... how do I fuel?

Post by NF52 »

emdurance wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 7:18 am Thank you Beth! This is very helpful.
Do you think I should reply again and "quote" the posts so people perhaps see my replies?
Attabeth wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 8:38 am Glad to help. One of the Moderators will go in and edit your posts to include the quotes so you don't have to take the time to do that. You can just use them going forward.
Hi emdurance!

Your posts have been very gently edited by me (a Moderator and Support Team member) to separate the quotes from others from your replies. I also added quotes from people you were reaching out to, like Josh C here: High Energy Expenditure and ApoE4. That way they get an email notification with a link to your reply. We hope this keeps conversations going!

The easy way to quote someone is to start with their post and click on the quote icon in the upper right of that post. That brings their entire post over to a Posting/Editing page. You can edit down their post if you like, as long as you don't disturb the beginning and ending brackets with the word "quote" in them!

Then just compose your answer, hit Preview underneath to see if it looks right and then hit Submit.

As someone who remembers those sleep-deprived nights with young kids decades later, I am in awe of your high performance. Your brain is thanking you; any brain fog you're feeling now is likely annoying but about as transient as the diaper years!

Nancy
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Re: Endurance athlete... how do I fuel?

Post by circular »

NF52 wrote: Fri Jul 15, 2022 2:41 pm You can edit down their post if you like, as long as you don't disturb the beginning and ending brackets with the word "quote" in them!
By the way, in case it's not come up before, the easiest way I've found to edit a post I'm quoting, as in the one just above, is before clicking on the quote symbol, I select and copy the part I want to quote. Then after clicking the quote symbol, I highlight the quoted post other than the bracketed parts and paste the part I want to quote. This way I don't have to hunt for what I really want to quote from within the whole quoted post. That's especially tedious for long quoted posts and/or when trying to do it on a phone.
ApoE 3/4 > Thanks in advance for any responses made to my posts.
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Re: Endurance athlete... how do I fuel?

Post by NF52 »

circular wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 11:07 am I highlight the quoted post other than the bracketed parts and paste the part I want to quote. This way I don't have to hunt for what I really want to quote from within the whole quote.
Great idea! Thanks for sharing.
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