Getting DHA while Having Histamine Issues

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circular
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Re: Getting DHA while Having Histamine Issues

Post by circular »

Thanks so much for the continued feedback. Taking it all in. One thing is that high amounts of high AO EVOO haven't helped. I've done that for about five years now. At least a tbs a day, but maybe that's nowhere near high enough? I'm sure it's like the holes in the roof image for cognitive decline, you have to manage a lot of trigger angles just right to find harmony. Exercise intolerance is another major AD prevention obstacle.

I'm sure there are different main drivers of MCAS too, so the most important angle to target may be different in each of us.

I think I still have a post in progress on my computer about probiotics in this context ...


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Re: Getting DHA while Having Histamine Issues

Post by circular »

LAC1965 I can try the betaine. I never would have thought of it.

It's kind of nice to know who else has MCAS, not that I would wish it in anyone. Maybe some others will be willing to chime in with a sort of MCAS roll call just for support in knowing others are trying to rope two steers at once (that's leaving out other issues!). It would also be good just to see some unscientific numbers among us showing what percent of the membership have it.


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Getting DHA while Having Histamine Issues

Post by circular »

Juliegee, is it your impression, if you have one, and I'm guessing you do and it is, that it's the combination of brain supports that's stabilized the immune/mast cells? Recently I posted an article about glucose triggering mast cells. I know you aren't extreme, but I'm wondering if going lower carb and mild keto might be stabilizing your nervous systems signals to the immune system, which is now a huge topic in vagus nerve research. SusanN knows much more about that. It's interesting that keto helps epilepsy, and if I understand it right, vagus nerve stimulation may too. You will recognize the connection between this nerve and POTS as well. I think this nerve may be the frontier for these complex syndromes, and your experience may hold a clue, and what stands out immediately to me is possibly a diet/keto/nerves link. I have never heard anyone else say they used to have MCAS and it's really not an issue anymore (which isn't to say never crops up?).


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Re: Getting DHA while Having Histamine Issues

Post by circular »

Couple other bits ... I can't find an algae DHA I tolerate ... Yet. They all contain triggers. For me, just another individual variation, when my 3:6 ratio was 1:1 I was at my sickest with mast cells. Imagine all the DHA oxidation that must have been going on, and my myeloperoxidase and hs-CRP were elevated at that time.


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Re: Getting DHA while Having Histamine Issues

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circular wrote:Juliegee, ... I know you aren't extreme, but I'm wondering if going lower carb and mild keto might be stabilizing your nervous systems signals to the immune system, which is now a huge topic in vagus nerve research. SusanJ knows much more about that. It's interesting that keto helps epilepsy, and if I understand it right, vagus nerve stimulation may too. You will recognize the connection between this nerve and POTS as well. I think this nerve may be the frontier for these complex syndromes, and your experience may hold a clue, and what stands out immediately to me is possibly a diet/keto/nerves link. I have never heard anyone else say they used to have MCAS and it's really not an issue anymore (which isn't to say never crops up?).
Quoting meself here, along these lines of whether a lower carb/higher fat/mild keto diet may quell histamine (mast cells) via the vagus nerve, I notice in the Wiki tome SusanJ prepared on the vagus nerve this part:

"Lipid-rich enteral nutrition regulates mucosal mast cell activation via the vagal anti-inflammatory reflex (2013)"

"The present study identifies stimulation of the hard-wired vagal anti-inflammatory reflex by enteral lipid-rich nutrition as a strong inhibitor of mucosal mast cell reactivity."

Hmmmm…. Maybe being sure to douse any histamine foods with half a liter of EVOO?

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Re: Getting DHA while Having Histamine Issues

Post by Julie G »

Couple other bits ... I can't find an algae DHA I tolerate ... Yet. They all contain triggers. For me, just another individual variation, when my 3:6 ratio was 1:1 I was at my sickest with mast cells. Imagine all the DHA oxidation that must have been going on, and my myeloperoxidase and hs-CRP were elevated at that time.
FWIW, here's the DHA algae I took: https://www.xymogen.com/assets/imageDis ... ntTypeID=5
I tolerated it fine. I think I took 4-5 a day. Wow, a 6:3 ratio of 1:1 is amazing- kudos. Dr. Isaacson would have been proud :D Have you found any published research to suggest that higher 6 to 3 improves inflammation? I haven't. To make the assumption that a healthy 6:3 balance elevated your CRP seems out there... but maybe you're surmising that a high fish intake stirred up histamine and caused inflammation? Hmmm, maybe? From what I've learned, elevated myeloperoxidase is a result of higher glucose markers. I know we're all different, but my CRP and myeloperoxidase (oxLDL) are very low and I take around a gram of DHA a day along with a high Omega-3 diet.

Circ, I don't claim to be cured of MCA; but my symptoms are dramatically improved. At my worst, I was taking prednisone, doxepin, atarax, ranitidine, anti-leuketraines, ketotifen, using nebulizers and epi-pens...and I had NO IgE mediated allergies. I now take 10mg of cetirizine and 150 mg of ranitidine. My goal is to get off of both (anticholingerics) as I continue to heal.

You basically know my regimen. I wish I could point to exactly WHAT helped. I changed so many things at once. My guess is that stopping all grains was huge as Cyrex Labs testing revealed I was highly sensitive. I can now eat a few bites of grain-fed chicken and still get hives; I'm that sensitive. I also eliminated as many toxins as I could by eating only whole food and using organic (when I can find it.) I also stopped using toxic chemicals for cleaning and in my personal products. I use fluoride-free toothpaste, aluminum-free deodorant, organic sunscreen, no nail polish or remover, etc.

I also suspect that my LFHC diet contributed by creating a pretty unhealthy gut and most likely widespread candidis. I seem to be very sensitive to even small amounts of refined sugars & acellular carbs, and even starchy cellular carbs. That diet (combined with my antihistamines/increased appetite) led me to develop symptoms of IR (belly fat/higher FBG) which contributed to my already reduced cerebral glucose metabolism exacerbated by my 4/4 status and reduction in glucose from menopause. So, yeah, for me going higher plant fat (EVOO) and switching to tons of non-starchy plants helped. It also allowed me to fast for longer periods to create ketones to help fuel my brain. Had I always eaten a LFHC hypocaloric diet comprised of only cellular carbs, I might not have needed HFLC...but it seems to work really well for now.

Circ, I hate that you are still dealing with MCA/histamine issues. My heart breaks for you. The worst part is the unpredictability of symptoms, the fatigue, pain, etc. I'm sending healing energy your way, my friend.
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Re: Getting DHA while Having Histamine Issues

Post by JannS »

Hi Julie G
I just found this thread and I hope you are still active.

I can sympathize with you and your story because it is so close to mine! I was a vegetarian for many years and was LFHC. I ended up with Hashimoto's thyroiditis/ Graves disease and Histamine intolerance among other things like candida, parasites, etc... I've been on the AIP Diet, personalized Paleo and now on a healthy keto/ Anti Inflammatory as well as alow histamine diet for the last 6 months. And it seems to be helping although I still struggle with certain high histamine foods causing a flare. :-( I know it takes time. However, my Cholesterol is still elevated according to my conventional doctor. ( 300) which doesn't really concern me. However, my LDL ( 211) and LDLK Particles (1400) do. the LDL-P is considered to be smaller particles. So that's a concern for a heart attack and my functional doc wants me on Fish oil supplements but we cant find one to try that may not flare histamines. Can you help? Thanks!

Hi Mod Tincup here. I"m putting in this quote to Julie G so she'll see your post.
Julie G wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:17 am .
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Re: Getting DHA while Having Histamine Issues

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JannS wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 11:46 am...
...I still struggle with certain high histamine foods causing a flare. :-( I know it takes time. However, my Cholesterol is still elevated according to my conventional doctor. ( 300) which doesn't really concern me. However, my LDL ( 211) and LDLK Particles (1400) do. the LDL-P is considered to be smaller particles. So that's a concern for a heart attack and my functional doc wants me on Fish oil supplements but we cant find one to try that may not flare histamines. Can you help? Thanks!...
Welcome, JannS!

You have certainly had a rollercoaster health journey! As a kid I had about 7 years of weekly allergy shots for almost all plant life (!); as a young adult I was secretly relieved when my future mother-in-law's beloved cat went to his reward, so I wouldn't leave their house with swollen eyes and congested nose. But I can't imagine the "talk" you must want to have with your immune system when it sends up yet another 'flare'. "This is not the 4th of July! I've done too much work to have you flare!" would be a start for me, with words I couldn't add here!

Like you, I also have (or had) high total cholesterol and high LDP-P. I choose to take a low dose statin due to family history of youngish severe heart/vascular disease, but that's a very individual choice.

I also take fish oil supplements, and try for about 2g total a day, with about 1600mg of that in DHA. I know there's uncertainty about whether EPA or DHA is preferable for those of us with ApoE 4 (I have two copies and am 70), I've decided for now to use this source as a guide:
Precision Nutrition for Alzheimer’s Prevention in ApoE4 Carriers Dr. Isaacson, one of the co-authors, was until recently Director of the Alzheimer's Prevention Center at Weill/Cornell Medical Center. I also like that he breaks info into specific sections, focuses on lifestyle and has charts for foods and supplements. Here's an excerpt of the section of the article on fish oil, with emphasis added by me:
Fatty fish are a final important part of Mediterranean diets, with wild salmon, mackerel, and sardines being perhaps the most healthful and available. These foods are a rich source of the two long-chain omega-3 fatty acids, eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA). DHA in particular is essential for brain function. Brain DHA levels are lower in individuals with AD as compared to controls [114,115] and greater consumption of fish and DHA is associated with lower rates of AD [116,117]. These associations are backed by animal models in which DHA can improve Aβ and tau pathologies [118,119]. DHA can inhibit NLRP3 [120], correspondingly tune microglia function [121], and DHA can inhibit NFκB-MMP9 activity [122]. Thus, it is possible that DHA targets pathways adversely affected in ApoE4 carriers and may prevent DAM-mediated inflammation and pericyte dysfunction leading to BBB breakdown.

DHA dose and timing also matter. ApoE4 carriers may need higher DHA doses because they β-oxidize DHA at greater rates than non-carriers [123]. In addition, carriers are more likely to exhibit BBB [blood-brain barrier] dysfunction [21] that can impair DHA delivery to the brain [124]. These two factors may explain why some (but not all) studies have found a negative association between fatty fish intake and the development of AD in the general population, while no association was observed in ApoE4 carriers [125]... Thus, those wishing to adopt a conservative approach may choose to consume more than the standard recommendation of two servings of fatty fish per week and may opt to additionally supplement (see below).
In the Table 2 chart from the article, DHA is recommended at ≥ 2 grams/day.

I've tried different companies for fish oil, and look for ones that seem to be well-tested and sourced. FWIW, currently I'm using both Carlson Elite DHA Gems with 1000 mg of DHA (no EPA) and Organa Essentials Icelandic Omega 3 with 820 mg of EPA and 620 mg of DHA. It claims to be "in natural triglyceride form" with heavy metals removed. I'm not a biochemist, or even chemist-adjacent, so have to hope the benefits are real.

You may want to use the SEARCH text box below your name to look for other topics using "DHA" or "fish oil" as search terms. Best of luck is finding something that keeps your immune flares quiet. Hope you share what you find that works!

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Re: Getting DHA while Having Histamine Issues

Post by SandyZ »

JannS wrote: Fri Sep 02, 2022 11:46 am Hi Julie G
I just found this thread and I hope you are still active.

I can sympathize with you and your story because it is so close to mine! I was a vegetarian for many years and was LFHC. I ended up with Hashimoto's thyroiditis/ Graves disease and Histamine intolerance among other things like candida, parasites, etc... I've been on the AIP Diet, personalized Paleo and now on a healthy keto/ Anti Inflammatory as well as alow histamine diet for the last 6 months. And it seems to be helping although I still struggle with certain high histamine foods causing a flare. :-( I know it takes time. However, my Cholesterol is still elevated according to my conventional doctor. ( 300) which doesn't really concern me. However, my LDL ( 211) and LDLK Particles (1400) do. the LDL-P is considered to be smaller particles. So that's a concern for a heart attack and my functional doc wants me on Fish oil supplements but we cant find one to try that may not flare histamines. Can you help? Thanks!

Hi Mod Tincup here. I"m putting in this quote to Julie G so she'll see your post.
Julie G wrote: Fri Jul 31, 2015 11:17 am .
Welcome JannS,

As a Support Team intern, I would like to welcome you to the ApoE4.info website. I'm so glad that you found us!

Finding the answers to some of these tough questions is quite an undertaking. I see that Nancy has offered up some information and sources for Omega-3.

I can see that your Character Strengths of Love of Learning and Perseverance are serving you well as you nagivate the world of histamine and finding an Omega-3 option that will work for you.

In my role as a Welcome intern, let me share several tools/resources to help you get the most out of your experience here:

First, the Primer is a detailed and informative resource written by a practicing M.D. with ApoE4/4. It includes information about the biochemistry of the ApoE4 gene and offers a variety of research-based prevention strategies.

In addition, the How to Guide offers tips on how to navigate forums and respond to posts. If you use the quotation icon (located in the top right hand corner of the post) when replying, the person that you are replying to will get an email notification that you have posted a reply. The "How to Guide" also demonstrates how to use the "Search" function for topics and how to subscribe to topics of interest in the forums.

Finally, if you would like to learn more about other community members' experiences, you can link to Our Stories You can also share more of your experience there if you are comfortable doing so.

I hope you find these tools useful as you navigate the site. Please reach out if you need any other assistance!

In gratitude,
SandyZ
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Re: Getting DHA while Having Histamine Issues

Post by SarahB »

Hi there - I have histamine intolerance thanks to DAO and HMNT mutations. I also can't tolerate fish oil; it gives me an urticarial rash with lip and throat swelling about half an hour after ingestion. The reaction is sporadic, not to every pill, but out of dates pill seem more likely to trigger the reaction. I've tried vegan and krill with the same response.

I'm not sure my reaction is due to histamine intolerance/high histamine in the fish oil; it could just be a regular allergy. The manufacturers swear histamine is removed during processing and would not be present in the oil fraction. And my usual reaction to non-fresh fish is a mad dash to the toilet.

Be that as it may, I'm done with fish oil. I did some research and found a low histamine fish that is frozen on the boat. It's called hoki and is fished off the coast of New Zealand and Australia. It's rich in fish oil The New Zealand fishery is carefully regulated. Several reputable companies fish for hoki including Sea Lord. You should only buy the unbreaded fillets. The breaded version is processed on shore.

I've been eating hoki for several months and have only had to run to the toilet once. I've loved having access to fish after several years of avoiding it. Fish tacos. Consider giving hoki a go if it's available in your area. Good luck.
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