Coffee vs Tea and Homocysteine

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SusanJ
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Re: Coffee vs Tea and Homocysteine

Post by SusanJ »

Circ, of course, vegans are probably taking in less methionine that pushes the methylation cycle and eventually produces homocysteine. Although soy and beans both are higher in methionine, as are brazil nuts, the amounts are nothing like in meats, cheese and fish. Less methionine = less homocysteine to recycle.

So, if you'd take in enough cofactors to do the methionine/homocysteine recycling, yep, I'd guess most people would be okay. Down to 5? Maybe if they don't have a lot of methylation variants.
Plumster
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Re: Coffee vs Tea and Homocysteine

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Just adding a 2004 study here for more info regarding MTHFR, homocysteine and coffee:
"The methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase C677T polymorphism is a major determinant of coffee-induced increase of plasma homocysteine: A randomized placebo controlled study" INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF MOLECULAR MEDICINE 13: 811-815, 2004

"Abstract. Some methylenetetrahydrofolate reductase (MTHFR) gene polymorphisms are associated with hyper- homocysteinemia. Trials have shown a plasma homocysteine raising effect of coffee. We determined the effect of a daily intake of 600 ml coffee and a supplementation of 200 |Xg folic acid or placebo on plasma homocysteine (tHcy) with respect to the MTHFR C677T and A1298C polymorphisms. One hundred and twenty healthy, non-smoking men (22%) and women (78%) aged 29-65 years, took part in a controlled, randomized, blinded study with two intervention periods: i) a coffee-free period of three weeks, ii) 600 ml coffee/day and a supplement of 200 |0.g folic acid/d or placebo for four weeks. The results showed that tHcy at baseline was significantly higher for the 677TT genotype group compared to the 677CC genotype group (p=0.0045) and that this group responded with significantly larger increase in tHcy upon coffee exposure than the 677CC and 677CT genotype groups (p=0.0045 and p=0.0041, respectively). Supplementation with 200 |a.g folic acid compared to placebo reduced the tHcy increasing effect of coffee in the 677TT genotype group. The A1298C polymorphism did not affect tHcy concentration significantly at any stage in the study. In conclusion, the homocysteine increasing effect of coffee is particularly seen in individuals with the homozygous 677TT genotype. Supplementation with 200 fxg folic acid/d decreases this tHcy increment."
e3/4 MTHFR C677T/A1298C COMT V158M++ COMT H62H++ MTRR A66G ++ HLA DR
Roamingseer
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Re: Coffee vs Tea and Homocysteine

Post by Roamingseer »

Circular, Dr. G is a vegan in the line of Pritikin- I believe. In his videos, he summarizes research papers. Personally, I love his stuff in part because it saves time, he asks pertinent questions regarding funding, in vivo versus in vitro, includes links to the original papers, & simplifies it. In regards to homocysteine, I was surprised my # was 9.5 on a very strict diet, lots of exercise & 9h tRF. I suspect that is a lot more to homocysteine then these B vitamins, including food sensitivities, which I have had my share.
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Re: Coffee vs Tea and Homocysteine

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June 2017 study, noting that 1-2 cups of coffee a day may lower your risk of AD:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27288328

"Nine prospective cohort studies involving 34,282 participants were included in our study. The duration of follow-up years ranged from 1.3 to 28. Compared with <1 cup, daily drinking of 1–2 cups of coffee was inversely linked with the occurrence of cognitive disorders (i.e., Alzheimer's disease, dementia, cognitive decline, and cognitive impairment), and the pooled RR (95% CI) was 0.82 (0.71, 0.94) with evidence of non-significant heterogeneity (I2 = 25%). Non-significant differences were presented for the association between coffee consumption (>3 vs. <1 cup/d) and incident cognitive disorders. The dose–response analysis showed a “J-shaped” curve relationship of the risk of developing cognitive disorders with coffee consumption."
e3/4 MTHFR C677T/A1298C COMT V158M++ COMT H62H++ MTRR A66G ++ HLA DR
Orangeblossom
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Re: Coffee vs Tea and Homocysteine

Post by Orangeblossom »

Maybe it's a question of moderation. I read that over a certain amount coffee can cause problems. It makes me jittery after more than a couple of cups, but two cups seems good. So I have a cup or two in the mornings and not in the afternoons so as not to affect sleep and get the jitters! Again as with many things, maybe it is a personal thing.

I also have a variant for high IL-6 and read this can be doubled with a high coffee intake, as well as the MTHFR one mentioned, so this is tricky. I wonder if this latter problem is alleviated by taking methyl folate though, to correct the MTHFR. So many things to do with MTHFR seem to be about the end product, rather than the MTHFR itself...ah yes it did say supplementation helped it.
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Re: Coffee vs Tea and Homocysteine

Post by mcpemberton2000 »

Could someone give me your thoughts on my homocysteine journey? Two years ago I increased my coffee intake and my homocysteine went from low 8s to 10s. I cut back and saw it come to the high 8s. This all with supplementing with over 1.5 grams of B12, 1.667 grams of methylfolate, and 4 mg of B6. Last B12 check was last year and I was over 1000. I've also had B6 and folate checked. They were at high levels. The only thing I did differently over that time was add a cup of black tea and a cup of green tea per day. In addition to the tea, I drink one cup of black coffee per day. I do have some problem SNPs.

CPS1 AA - Enzyme is involved in clearing ammonia from cells. A variants have been associated with elevated homocysteine levels.
CBS CC - Codes for enzyme that clears homocysteine using vitamin B6.
MTRR A66G - GG - MTRR is responsible for converting homocysteine into methionine. This is per my genetic report.
CPS1 AA - Eating foods releases ammonia, which must be processed by the body for you to remove it. CPS1 is the first step in this processing of ammonia. Individuals with this variant may have higher homocysteine when eating high protein.

Just really confused as to why it jumped up to 10s again with the supplements I take and just the addition of the tea. I eat sardines 3 x per week and I do eat meat some. Maybe cut down on meat consumption? Any thoughts?
SusanJ wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2018 10:18 am Circ, of course, vegans are probably taking in less methionine that pushes the methylation cycle and eventually produces homocysteine. Although soy and beans both are higher in methionine, as are brazil nuts, the amounts are nothing like in meats, cheese and fish. Less methionine = less homocysteine to recycle.

So, if you'd take in enough cofactors to do the methionine/homocysteine recycling, yep, I'd guess most people would be okay. Down to 5? Maybe if they don't have a lot of methylation variants.
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SusanJ
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Re: Coffee vs Tea and Homocysteine

Post by SusanJ »

mcpemberton2000 wrote:Just really confused as to why it jumped up to 10s again with the supplements I take and just the addition of the tea. I eat sardines 3 x per week and I do eat meat some. Maybe cut down on meat consumption? Any thoughts?
I haven't really looked at the issues with tea and homocysteine, so I did a little digging to see what I could find. Although the study posted above found tea decreased homocysteine in post-menopausal women, like many studies, we might miss those folks for whom it doesn't.

Can black tea influence plasma total homocysteine concentrations? (2003)
Overall, regular ingestion of black tea did not alter mean tHcy concentrations. However, individual differences in O-methylation of polyphenolic compounds may influence the ultimate effects of black tea on tHcy.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12663290/

I didn't look at the full paper to see the details, but it does remind us that not all of us do well on things that greatly help others, such as the post-menopausal findings. So, on to O-methylation, and yes it requires methyl groups.

Natural Polyphenol Disposition via Coupled Metabolic Pathways (2007)
Unlike UGTs and SULTs, methyltransferases such as catechol-O-methyltransferase catalyze the O-methylation of several catechol-containing polyphenols, forming metabolites that are just as polar as or slightly less polar than the parent compound [81]. This O-methylation reaction is subjected to strong inhibitory regulation by S-adenosyl-L-homocyteine, which is formed in large quantities during the O-methylation of tea polyphenols. Although methylation may not be the major metabolic pathway, its importance in the mechanisms of action of tea polyphenols cannot be underestimated as methylated metabolites tend to have different activities and some may resist inactivation via UGTs and SULTs [80-84].
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2777985/

In more plain English, the methyl transfer (from the action of catechol-O-methyltransferase, aka COMT), to metabolize tea, results in the production of a lot of S-adenosyl-L-homocysteine (SAH), which then needs to be metabolized. The increase in SAH slows methylation, slowing the production of SAH in order to maintain a balance. But, for those of us with methylation problems (including MTRR), tea might just be enough to tip the scale and drive up total homocysteine because we don't recycle SAH very well to begin with.

I'd say if you're that sensitive to tea, it might be best to drop it. If you want to continue to drink tea, you could try TMG to drive down homocysteine through another metabolic pathway.

(https://wiki.apoe4.info/wiki/Methylatio ... mocysteine)

I'll add this info to the wiki for future reference.
Last edited by SusanJ on Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
mcpemberton2000
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Re: Coffee vs Tea and Homocysteine

Post by mcpemberton2000 »

SusanJ wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:00 pm
mcpemberton2000 wrote:Just really confused as to why it jumped up to 10s again with the supplements I take and just the addition of the tea. I eat sardines 3 x per week and I do eat meat some. Maybe cut down on meat consumption? Any thoughts?
I haven't really looked at the issues with tea and homocysteine, so I did a little digging to see what I could find. Although the study posted above found tea decreased homocysteine in post-menopausal women, like many studies, we might miss those folks for whom it doesn't.

Can black tea influence plasma total homocysteine concentrations? (2003)
Overall, regular ingestion of black tea did not alter mean tHcy concentrations. However, individual differences in O-methylation of polyphenolic compounds may influence the ultimate effects of black tea on tHcy.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12663290/

I didn't look at the full paper to see the details, but it does remind us that not all of us do well on things that greatly help others, such as the post-menopausal findings. So, on to O-methylation, and yes it requires methyl groups.

Natural Polyphenol Disposition via Coupled Metabolic Pathways (2007)
Unlike UGTs and SULTs, methyltransferases such as catechol-O-methyltransferase catalyze the O-methylation of several catechol-containing polyphenols, forming metabolites that are just as polar as or slightly less polar than the parent compound [81]. This O-methylation reaction is subjected to strong inhibitory regulation by S-adenosyl-L-homocyteine, which is formed in large quantities during the O-methylation of tea polyphenols. Although methylation may not be the major metabolic pathway, its importance in the mechanisms of action of tea polyphenols cannot be underestimated as methylated metabolites tend to have different activities and some may resist inactivation via UGTs and SULTs [80-84].
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2777985/

In more plain English, the methyl transfer (from the action catechol-O-methyltransferase, aka COMT) to metabolize tea results in the production of S-adenosyl-L-homocysteine (SAH), which then needs to be metabolized. The increase in SAH slows methylation, to slow the production of SAH to maintain a balance. But, for those of us with methylation problems (including MTRR), tea might just be enough to tip the scale and drive up total homocysteine because we don't recycle SAH very well to begin with.

I'd say if you're that sensitive to tea, it might be best to drop it. If you want to continue to drink tea, you could try TMG to drive down homocysteine through another metabolic pathway.

(https://wiki.apoe4.info/wiki/Methylatio ... mocysteine)

I'll add this info to the wiki for future reference.
Thank you SusanJ! This is very helpful. I'm going to try to drop the tea and add some TMG as well then retest in a few months.
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Re: Coffee vs Tea and Homocysteine

Post by Maria4/4 »

Hi,

I also heard Dr. Bredesen talk about the negative effect of coffee on homosysteine levels. I think it was in a facebook video, but I don't recall which one.

I saw a very interesting video of a doctor that I follow on youtube that explains a study with results on which kind of coffee is healthier and the recommended dose https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hs--DT96NSQ.
He also says that to have the benefits of coffee, it doesn't have to have caffeine. The AD/coffee studies link the positive effects of coffee specifically to caffeine?

Thanks,
Maria 4/4
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Re: Coffee vs Tea and Homocysteine

Post by mcpemberton2000 »

SusanJ wrote: Fri Mar 17, 2023 1:00 pm
mcpemberton2000 wrote:Just really confused as to why it jumped up to 10s again with the supplements I take and just the addition of the tea. I eat sardines 3 x per week and I do eat meat some. Maybe cut down on meat consumption? Any thoughts?
I haven't really looked at the issues with tea and homocysteine, so I did a little digging to see what I could find. Although the study posted above found tea decreased homocysteine in post-menopausal women, like many studies, we might miss those folks for whom it doesn't.

Can black tea influence plasma total homocysteine concentrations? (2003)
Overall, regular ingestion of black tea did not alter mean tHcy concentrations. However, individual differences in O-methylation of polyphenolic compounds may influence the ultimate effects of black tea on tHcy.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12663290/

I didn't look at the full paper to see the details, but it does remind us that not all of us do well on things that greatly help others, such as the post-menopausal findings. So, on to O-methylation, and yes it requires methyl groups.

Natural Polyphenol Disposition via Coupled Metabolic Pathways (2007)
Unlike UGTs and SULTs, methyltransferases such as catechol-O-methyltransferase catalyze the O-methylation of several catechol-containing polyphenols, forming metabolites that are just as polar as or slightly less polar than the parent compound [81]. This O-methylation reaction is subjected to strong inhibitory regulation by S-adenosyl-L-homocyteine, which is formed in large quantities during the O-methylation of tea polyphenols. Although methylation may not be the major metabolic pathway, its importance in the mechanisms of action of tea polyphenols cannot be underestimated as methylated metabolites tend to have different activities and some may resist inactivation via UGTs and SULTs [80-84].
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2777985/

In more plain English, the methyl transfer (from the action of catechol-O-methyltransferase, aka COMT), to metabolize tea, results in the production of a lot of S-adenosyl-L-homocysteine (SAH), which then needs to be metabolized. The increase in SAH slows methylation, slowing the production of SAH in order to maintain a balance. But, for those of us with methylation problems (including MTRR), tea might just be enough to tip the scale and drive up total homocysteine because we don't recycle SAH very well to begin with.

I'd say if you're that sensitive to tea, it might be best to drop it. If you want to continue to drink tea, you could try TMG to drive down homocysteine through another metabolic pathway.

(https://wiki.apoe4.info/wiki/Methylatio ... mocysteine)

I'll add this info to the wiki for future reference.
Hey Susan, Just wanted to say again how much I appreciate this response. I cut out the additional tea and coffee. I only have one 8 oz cup per day of coffee and added some additional B12 and saw my homocysteine come down from 10.4 to 8.5! Not fun to cut back on coffee but I'm getting used to it. I guess I'm really sensitive to it. Thanks again!
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