Mitochondrial Dysfunction in E4 carriers

Insights and discussion from the cutting edge with reference to journal articles and other research papers.
GenePoole0304
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 561
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:20 pm

Re: Mitochondrial Dysfunction in E4 carriers

Post by GenePoole0304 »

I think we have all get the mito dysfunction just by aging.

Glutamate, an essential food for the brain
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/ ... 092915.php

so fasting causes muscle wasting....never be able to catch the next fish so we starve the mito great but dead..

MitoQ
http://joshmitteldorf.scienceblog.com/2 ... ted-coq10/

one more for ye all..

https://www.researchednutritionals.com/ ... ode=CRN130
User avatar
Julie G
Mod
Mod
Posts: 9187
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:36 pm

Re: Mitochondrial Dysfunction in E4 carriers

Post by Julie G »

Thanks for those links, Gene. I look forward to reading them. You're right, mitochondrial function naturally decreases as we age...but even more so for E4 carriers- not withstanding the fact that we run a deficit from a young age.
I'm wondering how "feeding the mitochondria" as per Dr. Bruce Ames and Dr. Terry Wahls might help mitigate this mitochondrial issue. In her lactate podcast with Dr. George Brooks, Dr. Rhonda Patrick said she viewed AD as a traumatic brain injury in "slow motion." The thrust of this podcast was lactate as an alternative brain fuel. 12/2/14 in this list: https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/fou ... d818198322 She also addresses this in her interview with Terry Walhs 7/21/14 in the same list.
Great question, George. Some of us seem to be safely utilizing mild ketosis now to improve mitochondrial function. But we may be walking a fine line. It seems to me that there's potential for it be applied it a way that's unhealthful if one isn't carefully focused on optimal nutrition, closely following lipid/glucose/inflammation biomarkers, and staying slightly hypo-caloric to ensure burning fat as opposed to storing it.

Like you, I'm intrigued with the use of lactate as a neuronal fuel. This older study demonstrated that it (over glucose) was preferentially used in human neurons but it failed to provide a demonstrable increase in FDG-PET scans.
Lactate: A Preferred Fuel for Human Brain Metabolism In Vivo
http://www.nature.com/jcbfm/journal/v23 ... 1414a.html

I've previously watched the first Rhonda Patrick interview with George Brooks- although it's been a while. I look forward to the one with Terry Wahls. This may be a really dumb question, but aside from an IV infusion or intense exercise, HOW would we actually use lactate as a neuronal fuel?

Here's a very current paper from Brooks outlining the therapeutic use of lactate in TBIs:
Cerebral metabolism following traumatic brain injury: New discoveries with implications for treatment
http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/ ... .00408/pdf
Phlogiston
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:45 am

Re: Mitochondrial Dysfunction in E4 carriers

Post by Phlogiston »

Several months ago, Apod posted a link to this study which claims that decanoic acid (C10, a medium chain triglyceride) not only improves mitochondrial function but actually increases the number of mitochondria:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24383952

Since I was planning to begin using MCT oil anyway, I started checking the labels of assorted MCT oils sold online to find which contained the most C10. Coconut oil contains relatively little, and most MCT products I looked at contained none at all. However, Left Coast Performance makes an MCT oil that is approximately 40% C10.

I have been using 3 tablespoons daily.
User avatar
Julie G
Mod
Mod
Posts: 9187
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:36 pm

Re: Mitochondrial Dysfunction in E4 carriers

Post by Julie G »

Thanks for bringing C10 back to our attention, Phlogiston. I was struck by the similarities between it and Dr. Rose's Pioglitizone. Both increase the number of mitochondria.

Pioglitizone is described as a synthetic ligand for peroxisome proliferator-activated receptors (PPARs.) C10 seems to activate the PPARy receptor. I hope someone can help me understand the difference :?: Your paper also suggests that C10 mimics a KD. I wonder about its affect on lipids. Some source suggest that it MAY not have a negative effect on cholesterol like LCFA. I'd love some more information on that.

FWIW, Dave Asprey has an enhanced MCT that is comprised of C8 and C10, but I couldn't figure out what percentage was C10.

Most importantly, how are you feeling, Phlogiston? Are you noticing any difference in your cognition or energy level?
Harrison
Senior Contributor
Senior Contributor
Posts: 278
Joined: Wed May 06, 2015 10:24 am

Re: Mitochondrial Dysfunction in E4 carriers

Post by Harrison »

I have been using MCT oil from Viva Labs (about 1-1.5 teaspoons in my morning coffee). I am thinking about moving up to a tablespoon to see how I tolerate it.

Their oil is 60% Caprylic acid (C8) and 39.7% Capric acid (C10) according to their amazon.com page.
Phlogiston
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2015 8:45 am

Re: Mitochondrial Dysfunction in E4 carriers

Post by Phlogiston »

Juliegee, I waited a little while to answer your question because the last couple days I've had a little bit of hypomania, and not the pleasant or productive kind either.

I think it may be the MCT oil, since citicoline will keep me awake if I take it late in the day but has never caused me to react this way.

I'm taking a couple days off from both MCT oil and citicoline. When I get back to normal I will start citicoline again and then slowly ease the MCT oil back in, taking teaspoons instead of tablespoons.

The bright side of this is that if it can make me hypomanic, it is obviously having a neurological effect. The challenge will be to use it cautiously enough to avoid side effects.
Audrey
New User
New User
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2015 3:13 pm

Re: Mitochondrial Dysfunction in E4 carriers

Post by Audrey »

Hi Everyone

My name is Audrey and I'm from the UK and recently joined your group. I've been trawling through all the information though as Im currently suffering from Chronic Fatigue I am really struggling to read through it all as it is giving me a headache! I will persevere though.

I wanted to ask if anyone know of any links with candidiasis and mitochondrial dysfunction? Sorry if there is a post on this but I havent managed to find one. A doctor Ive recently seen thought I may have mitochondrial dysfunction and since seeing him I've found out I'm E4/E4 so from reading your posts mitochondrial dysfunction wouldnt be surprising. I've been placed me on an anti candida plan by this doctor as he talked about candida disrupting Magnesium absorption from the gut. Ive recently started taking epsom salt baths for muscular pain and must say the pains have eased which never happened whilst I was taking Mg supplements before so may be there is something in what he says? Also does anyone know how safe it is to take epsom salt baths and how frequently I can take them - Ive been using 500-1000g epsom salts/bath.

I did also see some research, sorry cant find the link now, but it seemed to indicate that Aβ proteins linked to E4 that are found in AD have antimicrobial properties so this Aβ plaque could be a response to bacteria, candida, viruses etc - if this is the case then would antimicrobial treatment be implicated as a precautionary treatment for those with E4 ?
User avatar
Julie G
Mod
Mod
Posts: 9187
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:36 pm

Re: Mitochondrial Dysfunction in E4 carriers

Post by Julie G »

I appreciate your thoughtful response, Phlogiston. Interestingly, I had the exact same response to both choline and MCT- no doubt they are doing something :shock: . Your dose of MCT was whopping, but we all different. I learned I could only tolerate a small amount, but I liked what it did for my brain & overall energy level. When you feel stabilized, perhaps consider adding a small amount back into your regimen and carefully note the effect. You've got me thinking about C10 again- thanks.

FWIW, I still take choline in the form of citicoline 250mg- but I am careful to only take it in the AM to harness the energy boost. You are very smart to be so observant of the effects of both and tweak accordingly. I'm constantly doing the same with any new supplement, dietary or lifestyle change. When/if you settle on a new MCT dose, I'll be curious to get a review from you.

Welcome Audrey! What an intriguing question about mitochondrial dysfunction and candida albicans. Like you, I'm a 4/4 and also experience obvious symptoms of mitochondrial dysfunction. When I was at my sickest, I did have a widespread candida infection. I did a quick PubMed search with the terms “Mitochondria” and “Candida Albicans” and got 220 hits. (See below.) I haven’t had time to sift through them, but I think you may be on to something important. Apparently, candida is an opportunistic pathogen that seeks weakness in the mitochondria respiratory chain. It makes sense that a vulnerability there could make us more susceptible. I look forward to learning what you uncover:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?ter ... a+Albicans

Very interesting to hear about the possible magnesium connection. I've been found to be very deficient despite heavy supplementation. Hmmm, candida might explain why :idea: I doubt it would be possible to overabsorb magnesium from epsom salts, but I'd be curious to hear from others. The symptoms of magnesium toxicity are very loose bowels. Certainly, be on the look-out for that. More and more research is linking candida to Alzheimer's. Amyloid has been found to have antimicrobial properties. Perhaps candida is one of it's targets. I like the way you think, Audrey. I can't wait to learn more.
User avatar
Tincup
Mod
Mod
Posts: 3558
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:57 pm
Location: Front Range, CO

Re: Mitochondrial Dysfunction in E4 carriers

Post by Tincup »

Audrey wrote:Ive recently started taking epsom salt baths for muscular pain and must say the pains have eased which never happened whilst I was taking Mg supplements before so may be there is something in what he says? Also does anyone know how safe it is to take epsom salt baths and how frequently I can take them - Ive been using 500-1000g epsom salts/bath.
Hi Audrey,

Welcome to the group. To keep atrial fibrillation at bay, I take large quantities of oral magnesium - in the 4-6g/day of elemental mag range. I've been doing daily high dose mag for 11 years. One doctor reported taking 20g/day orally to get rid of his diabetic neuropathy. He then dropped back to 5g/day orally. Saying this to address excess. If you have normal healthy kidneys (you aren't on dialysis for example), your kidneys should excrete any excess mag. I'm sure I urinate out a bunch, but it is what my system needs.

Here is a transdermal epsom salt report: http://www.epsomsaltcouncil.org/article ... ulfate.pdf

Here are other ways to take epsom salts transdermally (besides a bath): http://www.enzymestuff.com/epsomsalts.htm#3 (this link is from an autism group - they need the sulfate from the epsom salt).

If I want to take mag transdermally (I tend to use mag chloride rather than epsom salt), I just make up a supersaturated solution of the mag in water. That is just enough water to dissolve the mag. I then spread it on my skin and let it dry.
Tincup
E3,E4
GenePoole0304
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 561
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:20 pm

Re: Mitochondrial Dysfunction in E4 carriers

Post by GenePoole0304 »

there are slides and science in there if one takes the time to read it..

there is also a small study with positive results. one can make up their own less costly supplement by getting the main ingredients..

https://www.researchednutritionals.com/ ... ode=CRN130



http://www.researchednutritionals.com/i ... .cfm?ID=19
Post Reply