Getting DHA while Having Histamine Issues

[circular]

So for years now I've been eating high omega 3 fish nearly every day. I also have bad histamine issues. I experimented with nearly everything but seemed to miss the elephant in the room - the dietary fish! When my eye doc prescribed high omega fish oil I added that as well. I spent nearly a week pretty much down for the count with histamine flare. Then I realized that started when I'd started the oil. I stopped the oil and the dietary fish and wow! Much better! Of course other triggers easily cause a new flare (a peach here, half an avocado there, chemical scents when I'm out etc etc etc …), but I've realized the obvious, that my major omega 3 source has been poisoning my brain

So then I thought maybe I could take the algae omega 3. Martek's algae version is, after all, the one used in studies showing benefit (according to Isaacson, though granted, not for e4s - hoping it will make my one e3 happy). However, when I look up that product, I get "Production of life'sDHA: life'sDHA's manufacturing plants specialize in the production and refinement of DHA from algae. The process begins with the initial algae cell culture and results in a highly purified DHA oil. The microalgae are grown in fermentors that range in size from 80,000 to 260,000 liters. When grown, the microalgae is then harvested and processed to extract the clear, amber-colored oil rich in DHA." Add to that, the versions of algae fish oil I've looked at all have lemon flavoring (histamine) except one that has carageenen (leaky gut). I happened to have on in my fridge I tried in the past, still holding on to its sticky note saying "histamine?" because I'd noticed that reaction to it before. I tried it again this morning and I guess it's going to get tossed, because there's a clear reaction even to half a dose.

I still would also like a good does of omega 3 EPA for its benefits.

In the meantime I've increased my plant omega 3 with higher flax and hemp intake. While I know the conversion isn't good, it may have an advantage of leading to less oxidation if my body converts as needed, rather than allowing gobs of omega 3 to swirl around?

I'm at a loss right now how I am going to adequately supplement omega 3. I have more very expensive histamine enzymes on order to use with small portions of fish and hope they work. I've had mixed results with that in the past, probably depending how many other histamine triggers I'm faced with at a given meal. So far I have not found "The Histamine Chef" approach to work for me. Significantly upping antihistaminic and mast cell stabilizing foods does nothing in me to offset histamine containing and producing foods, especially while actually living which means encountering so many other triggers.

Just posting this in case anyone has any additional thoughts to offer. Maybe my body is telling me it would rather be vegan, although two lamb chops the other night were delicious and compatible

[SusanJ]

Circ, hugs. I know how tough this histamine thing is to wrestle to the ground. Just a couple of things.

First, I have just stumbled across a couple of stray comments about olive oil helping histamine problems. Haven't had a chance to research, but did find an article in pubmed which suggests it does. Don't know what your intake levels are with EVOO, but something to think about.

Second, you mentioned hormones on another thread. Progesterone can help inhibit mast cell secretion. You might want to look at those numbers, too. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17166400

[Gilgamesh]

Circ, I'm sorry for your dilemma. A lot of us have these multiple, contradictory lifestyle/dietary constraints: things that are good for ε4s are bad for some other problem we have.

I don't know much about histamine problems. But about DHA: I would stress that we really don't know whether it's such a great thing to be supplementing with it, or even eating a lot of DHA-rich food. The evidence is very weak, for ε4s. --

In the meantime I've increased my plant omega 3 with higher flax and hemp intake. While I know the conversion isn't good, it may have an advantage of leading to less oxidation if my body converts as needed, rather than allowing gobs of omega 3 to swirl around?

Well, the conversion might be really good -- precisely because "good" might not mean the same as "high", and high might be bad. And remember the Pima Indians and Nigerians with ε4 who eat very little meat and fish (though not none), but have astonishingly low rates of Alzheimer's. (But they also eat less overall -- MUCH less in the case of the Pima -- than genetically similar people who've been Westernized, so it's probably a CR effect. But either way, the absence of gobs of DHA appears not to harm them.)

I would put the "may" about the advantage more strongly: I think it would likely have the advantage of leading to less oxidation. DHA is a scary molecule -- long and fragile and highly oxidizable. These people taking a gram or more of DHA per day.... Yikes! Makes me nervous.

Lots of smart people I know have gone the pure vegan route: omega-3 only via flax, chia, nuts, etc. -- let the body decide how much to convert. (By the way, I don't believe any studies have been done on conversion rates for long-term vegans. Wouldn't surprise me if the conversion rates are higher for them.)

Still, Michaelson's (and others') work is compelling, so I've been torn.

Here's my compromise:

I take EPA 2-3 times/week, because it can help with some gut problems I have, and is a bit less "dangerous" than DHA, and I consume huge amounts of ALA (mostly from chia seeds). Well, at least, that's what I had been doing. I'm currently doing an experiment of eating more fish, so for the moment I'm getting lots of DHA. I don't like that!

GB

[circular]

Thanks for all your thoughts GB. I'm not familiar with Michaelson, unless you mean the study Juliegee has mentioned showing e4s may or always hypermetabolkze (haha!) DHA as fuel (maybe due to hypometabolizing glucose?). This is what has me a bit concerned, that maybe we need more not less. I'm open though and the thought of daily plant DHA and fish a couple times a week is my current compromise.

The last couple days I used the Low Histamine Chef approach with better results. I thought maybe normal amounts of antihistamine foods doesn't work but high amounts might. One example that left me a little stuffy but still with energy to enjoy the day:

Typical huge lunch salad but like this:

Histamine:
Abt 3 oz wild salmon
Abt 3 slices avocado
1 strawberry
Spinach in lettuce mix

Antihistamine:
Lg handful basil
Lg handful watercress
Lg handful cilantro
Tall glass ice water mixed with fresh ginger concentrate (I made the concentrate in a high power blender)

Neutral:
Lettuce greens
Carrots
Celery
Plenty high AO EVOO

Note I no longer enjoy the vinegar, olives and/or capers, but I do enjoy the herbiness of the antihistamine herbs.

This was encouraging so I will keep playing around. LHC is the personification of extreme so I'm not sure why I didn't get it that the approach requires HUGE doses of antihistamine food if it's going to help

BTW, sure you mean Pima Indians? They have very high rates of diabetes and heart disease. My guess is that few eat traditionally, or they do, but not the way we mean it. Loads of fry bread and the like. Someone must have studied a more traditional subset.


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[Julie G]

Sorry you're struggling with this, Circ. I used to be in your shoes with mast cell chaos; I get it, my friend

I fully embrace the uncertainty re. DHA or any supplemental fish oil for E4s, but it's worth noting that top AD/CAD prevention researchers/clinicians (Dayspring, Isaacson, etc) have concluded that E4s need more Omega-3s rather than less. As I recall, Dr. Isaacson aims for a 2:1 Omega-6:3 ratio ONLY in his E4 patients. He allows his other high AD risk patients to have more relaxed ratios of 3:1 or even 4:1.

And, don't forget this recent study that examined Omega-3 levels in an exclusively E4 data set. Rather than comparing our population to the general population (which typically results in E4 carriers demonstrating no benefit;) researchers compared HIGH Omega-3 levels (mean: 216.00 nmol/mL) vs. LOW Omega-3 levels (mean: 102.30 nmol/mL) among E4 carriers using both cognitive testing and brain imaging. The HIGH group fared considerably better both in cognitive abilities and brain volume.

Anterior cingulate cortex mediates the relationship between O3PUFAs and executive functions in APOE e4 carriers.
http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/ ... 7/abstract

This paper alone provides a strong argument in favor of serum testing Omega-3 levels. This may be especially true for vegans who opt to rely on ALA conversion. Perhaps a lower level might point towards the need for supplemental DHA?

Well, the conversion might be really good -- precisely because "good" might not mean the same as "high", and high might be bad. And remember the Pima Indians and Nigerians with ε4 who eat very little meat and fish (though not none), but have astonishingly low rates of Alzheimer's. (But they also eat less overall -- MUCH less in the case of the Pima -- than genetically similar people who've been Westernized, so it's probably a CR effect. But either way, the absence of gobs of DHA appears not to harm them.)

I would love to delve into this in another thread. I think there's a treasure trove of great information here on both the Pima Indians & Nigerians.

[ABrain4Me]

As I write, I am coming off of a massive histamine reaction this week. Decided to try the supplements George recommended after his visit to Gundry. Ended up with insomnia, congestion, eye itching, and massive tears from eyes during the day. Not sure if it's the Kirkland Fish Oil supplements, or the Niacinamide 500 mg. It's the ugliest reaction I've had in ages. Stopped all supplements and I'm back to normal.

As far as DHA-- I used to do Green Pastures Fermented Cod Liver Oil/Factor X combo-- but it's high histamine. Then went to Carlson's bottles of Fish Oil-- wish I seem to do ok with, and would be my first choice, even with my uber sensitive histamine issues. This is the one I have the least reactions to, so would recommend trying out.

I now have a giant bottle of Kirkland Fish Oil gels sitting here and don't dare take again. Histamine reactions are the worst-- absolutely debilitating, and there's no one in the world that understands, except those of use with histamine issues . I tried anti-histamines with this round, and even they didn't work. Yikes-- the insomnia is the worst aspect of a histamine reaction.

[circular]

Thanks for the additional info Juliegee about E4 and omega 3. When I had advanced labs done in 1/13 my ratio was 1:1. I ate canned salmon almost every day, so I know that at least that approach works, but for the histamine issues. I didn't realized Dayspring and Isaacson were on board with the concept that we need more. Good to know.

ABrain4Me I will remember to try the Carlson's Maybe theirs has fewer amines for some reason. Maybe the combination fish oil plus niacinimide was the biggest part of your reaction. Maybe try adding one at a time?

Nice that others understand, and even describe the same experience. Very confirming. My loved ones struggle to believe in it I think, but they're not outwardly unsupportive - just don't really get it, which just adds to the stress. My husband sees what I go through and has no other explanation so is receptive, if a bit confused, thank goodness! I can't wait until everyone is reading about it in the media. Back in the day we could call Oprah.

[Gilgamesh]

Circ, I meant the pre-/non-Westernized Pima.

Julie, yes, the omega-3 question is worth delving into in detail. I'm trying to gather my notes but they still are in a state of chaos (bookmarks on various devices that haven't properly synced, etc.).

GB

[Julie G]

Circ, I really feel for you having been through the wringer with MCA. My symptoms were so severe (think anaphylaxis despite no IgE mediated allergies) that I ended up at Brigham and Women’s seeing Dr. Marianna Castells- one of the top mast cell docs in the world. I don’t know specifically WHAT helped me recover, but when I took the focus off MCA and put 100% of my energy on my brain health; the MCA symptoms almost fully abated. MCA treatments (H1s, H2s, mast cell stabilizers, anti-leuketreines were just band-aids (albeit VERY necessary at the time) and may have even worsened things.

MCA/histamine is essentially an inflammatory response. Allowing your Omega 6:3 ratio to worsen will INCREASE inflammation. You are most certainly on the right track to try to find a way to safely balance yours. Read about how algae actually inhibits histamine. I think our brilliant Susan is on the right track with EVOO as well. It also inhibits histamine. Interestingly, I was using algae DHA and increasing my EVOO as I healed.

G is right to be concerned about DHA oxidation. When I first learned of my E4 status, that was the prevailing hypothesis; the reason E4 carriers don’t benefit from fish oil was the presumption that we oxidized it. Newer research is now calling that into question. E4 carriers appear to instead preferentially metabolize DHA. By adding a carbon tracer to DHA, researchers have demonstrated that we “gobble" it up and don’t conserve it like the other ApoE genotypes. This may be the reason so may top AD/CAD docs are recommending more for us. FWIW, I take a gram of DHA a day and recently tested my oxidized LDL. It was in the lowest quartile lending credence to this newer development.

Here is a recent paper delving into this. As you read, bear in mind that β-oxidation is NOT the same as lipid peroxidation. β-oxidation (beta-oxidation) is the catabolic process in which fatty acids are used by the body as a source of energy. It’s a fancy word for “metabolize." Lipid peroxidation refers to the oxidative degradation of lipids.

Fatty Acid Metabolism in Carriers of Apolipoprotein E Epsilon 4 Allele: Is It Contributing to Higher Risk of Cognitive Decline and Coronary Heart Disease?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4210928/

1. In this paper, we highlighted that people carrying at least one allele of APOE4 seems to have a deregulated fatty acid metabolism with emphasis on disrupted DHA homeostasis. To date, it is not clear how this could play a role in the risk of developing LOAD and/or CHD but it could involve the following processes.

2. Shift in fatty acid selection for β-oxidation where DHA becomes highly β-oxidized in APOE4 carriers whereas in the non-carriers, DHA is highly conserved. In APOE4 carriers, brain uptake of DHA seems lower resulting in lower brain membrane DHA over time. This could play a role in neurotransmission and expression of genes and proteins involved in brain health but this needs further investigation.

3. APOE4 carriers respond differently than non-carriers to dietary interventions involving lipids such that modulating lipoprotein levels may include managing fatty acid circulating in the blood. Providing higher doses of LC omega-3 to this population could be necessary to obtain a similar response compared to the non-carriers supplemented with lower doses of LC omega-3.

G, no worries about starting the Pima Indians/Nigerians thread…I will when I get a chance. Just toss your research in there when you’re able. I love these forensic look-backs from traditional cultures. I think we have a lot to learn from them.

[LA18]

Circular, I have MCA disorder, also diagnosed by Dr. Castells. While I still have some histamine intolerance (no fermented foods, and only salmon or cod liver oil), my symptoms are nothing like what they were a few years ago. One thing that has helped is the use of a betaine HCL supplement with every meal. I’m sure I have leaky gut, and I think I wasn’t digesting my food adequately, so things were getting into my bloodstream that didn’t belong there. The betaine has also pretty much eliminated my fructose intolerance, which was fairly severe.