Ketogenic Diet: Transitioning, Experiences, Reasons, Cautions ...

[LanceS]

He seems to espouse the concept that oncogenes are a bunch of nonsense and all the R&D money spent studying oncogenes is foolish, because all cancer is related to ketone burning oxphos vs. glycolysis.

Seems like your opinion of what he would say. They readily admit certain cancers are not approachable with a ketogenic approach.

It seems like quackery to me, just given the basics of how a virus like HPV integrates itself into the host and ultimate ubiquinates p53 (causing runaway cell proliferation because it has killed off the primary self-destruct checkpoint in the cell). But I'm not very well read at all on cancer to have an in-depth though and I barely grasp ketosis at this point.

Read the Cancer: The Emperor of All Maladies (Mukherjee?). Pay attention at the end when a guys work (from NIH) is brought up who pays attention to the effect smoking, early intervention have had. While there are some very clear winners with the approaches that Mukherjee outlines in his book, when you properly control for key variables, then consider how much we are spending and the ravages that ineffective standard of care therapies reek on the last months of patients lives, it is pretty clear the genetic approach to curing cancer has (by and large) failed. Some universities have done some good stuff... starting institutes of study dedicated to catching it early, etc., etc. So don't get me wrong. But if you read M's book with a careful, reasonably experienced eye, paying attention to the last bit of not making any progress, but with a little new magic we're winning the war.... ummmm.....very weak sauce ending.

Read up on these "novel cancer therapies" of today. They develop drugs costing $000M in order to get a few extra months of chemo laden "victory" for shareholders, whoops patients. System may not be broken. But its damn close.

[marthaNH]

I hear you, Lance. I have to watch myself because I get so angry over some of these issues (because of experiences with family) that I can get very blind to nuance. But I do think there is much to what you say.

On the other hand... the material that waved a red flag for aphorist punched my warning button, too. Glad to have read all of it.

[Tincup]

While I think it's critical to be fat adapted, experience periods of ketosis, and maintain fuel flexibility (the opposite of metabolic syndrome), some of Tom Seyfried's claims seem pretty over the top to me.

He seems to espouse the concept that oncogenes are a bunch of nonsense and all the R&D money spent studying oncogenes is foolish, because all cancer is related to ketone burning oxphos vs. glycolysis.

My understanding is that he is saying glycolysis is upstream of all the genetic stuff. That glycolysis should be addressed before addressing the genetics, not that the oncogenes are a bunch of nonsense. The glycolysis is common to most metastatic cancers.

n=1, at a conference, I met a woman, Alison Gannett, with hemangiopericytoma, it is a meningeal tumor with a special aggressive behavior. Using a keto diet (with glucose/ketone index <=1) and the Ketonix breath acetone device she had been able to keep it from growing. She said she'd hoped for tumor regression and expressed this to her docs. They told her that she didn't understand, the prognosis for this type of tumor was for it to be extremely aggressive and that keeping it from growing was a huge win. Her diet also includes a huge amount of non-starchy veggies, like Terry Wahls advocates, but very low net carbs. She used the Ketonix to titrate which foods would be negative for ketosis.

[circular]

I would guess there is almost certainly interplay between oncogenes and environment, similar to with AD. Those emphasizing ketosis in the fight against cancer aren't too far from those emphasizing it to help prevent/delay AD in e4s? While we have no solutions to either disease (at least WRT most cancers), tipping the environment balance in a way that appears so far to be strongly favorable towards good outcomes, if without risk, seems to me reasonable, while continuing the genetic research. And like the biome research recently posted, we're all in the baby years of any of this research, a time when dreams and 'promising advances' are touted loudly, long ahead of the evidence, so it will be interesting to see the landscape 20-100 years from now.

[J11]

Hi, everyone! Just thought I should end the argument.

Curing glioblastoma after a 2 month restricted ketogenic diet?

Someone have any smelling salts?
I'm in total shock!

Wonder if this protocol could be used broadly in cancer treatment?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2874558/

[Julie G]

Martha, apologies for my very slow response to your recent "tweaking" post. I can completely relate. Every one in a while, I realize I've been eating too many carbs, too often, too many total calories, (whatever???) and I find that I've put on a few pounds. Dropping carbs and/or fasting pretty reliably puts me back on track. Like you, I've gotten very small, but feel good, strong, and stable at that weight. Anything extra drags me down. Good for you for recognizing "it's time" and for having figured out how to get to your goal with good biomarkers. XO

[Tincup]

Seyfried collected and reported a number of nuclear transfer experiments, done previously. Essentially nuclei from cancer cells were transferred into cells with normal cytoplasm and vice versa. The normal cytoplasm suppressed the tumorigenesis & vice versa. The collective experiments make a good case that the damaged mitochondria precipitate the cancer.

fcell-03-00043.pdf

[marthaNH]

Martha you are getting to know your body so well in this process. I too have moved the slider this way and that to find my sweet spot, and that includes into ketosis three times, the third being effortless. I'm not sure why it's been easier, but this time I simplified it. I canned my version of bulletproof coffee, with coconut oil and grass-fed ghee, along with other coconut sources and the small bit of exogenous ketones (MCT oil) I was using, and followed; i.e., I didn't worry about getting exogenous ketones. I also took Dr. Gundry's advise to just use potassium/magnesium aspartate (2-3/day) along with plenty of table salt in my food.

....and waiting to order ketone strips for to corroborate Ketonix. I'm not sure if I'm losing weight yet or not, but I think so, gradually. Of course, YMMV. Keep us posted!

Martha, apologies for my very slow response to your recent "tweaking" post. I can completely relate. ...Good for you for recognizing "it's time" and for having figured out how to get to your goal with good biomarkers. XO

Thanks for the support, ladies, and Julie, don't you dare apologize. You have a lot of chicks here to help look after.

I'm about ten days in and I don't think I've lost much weight, but I'm too close to the goal and too long in lower-carb to expect dramatic losses. (It was a shock to realize I had been trying to drop the same four pounds since Christmas.) It was NO FUN WHATSOEVER to disrupt my veggie-heavy routine and I just hated what the electrolytic uproar did to my poor head! But I am about 90% back to normal now, working out again rather than just lying on the couch, even though I am being careful not to push too hard in terms of distance or intensity for another couple of days. My heart rate is still elevated a little.

Circ, would you mind explaining the bits I highlighted above? One of the forbidden things I've allowed myself to have (for two weeks only!) is some pureed coconut. I really love it and it seems to make me feel better as well as make some things more tasty -- plus of course helps me hit those fat markers. Wasn't sure whether you were or were not using the things you canned... Also, do you have a brand name for that potassium/mag supplement? How much did you take and what's your size, if you don't mind my asking? I think I'm past needing it right now but -- heaven forbid -- I could wind up in this spot again!

Oh, and I have been exploring NATTO!! I wanted to put special emphasis on fermented foods during induction so I didn't get too screwed up in the gut. It takes a little adjusting to and I think I will be saving it for days when I can afford a half cup of white rice.

Circ, I'm probably going to spring for a set of ketone strips at some point too, but I haven't ordered them yet. I could get real silly about finger-poking if I didn't put limits on that kind of behavior.

[J11]

I am getting excited about trying out the below treatment plan from the brain cancer patient.
Why wait for cancer to learn the drill?
I suppose if you do the drill every once and a while you could pretty much turn the wait into Waiting for Godot.

I was worried that the ketogenic diet would be overly complex.
Have to read a library of books to figure it out.
The below description shows how easy it can be.

"During the immediate post-operative recovery period, the patient started a self-imposed water only fast (from December 16-17). The patient's average daily calorie intake, prior to fasting, was about 1700-1800 kcal/day. Blood glucose was 130 mg/dl while urine ketone levels were undetectable.

After several days of modest food consumption, the patient again started a water-only fast on December 22. Blood glucose and urine ketones were monitored using a standard glucose kit and Keto-Stick kit (Ketur-Test®). After three days of fasting (ketosis induction period), ketones were raised to the high level of +++, while blood glucose was reduced to 60 mg/dl. At this time (December 24), the patient's body weight and body mass index was 58.0 kg (127.6 lbs) and 23.23 kg/m2, respectively. After the fast, a KD was administered in restricted amounts for 14 days (December 24 to January 7, 2009).

This calorie restricted ketogenic diet (R-KD) delivered about 600 kcal/day in total and included 20 g of the KetoCal® 4:1 (fat/protein + carbohydrate) diet (SHS, International), 10 g medium chain triglyceride oil (MCT), 32 g protein, and 10 g carbohydrates. The diet contained a small amount of dietary fiber, and a total fat content of 42 g.

The R-KD was supplemented with multivitamins including the B complex and minerals to maintain nutrient adequacy and to avoid metabolic abnormalities as previously described "

This looks easy! Pretty much KetoCal, and MCT. I can do that.
Any suggestions for what would be good to use for the protein, carbohydrate and fiber requirements?

This will be a great experiment to try this summer.
I could start off and see how a week goes.

Have they put on the market yet a non-prick blood glucose meter?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2874558/

[J11]

It looks like the above items are all fairly readily accessible online.

Yet, I am not completely sure about KetoCal.
KetoCal is called a "medical food".
Is a prescription required?

Seems sort of pathetic.
I mean have they really managed to create a patentable medical food that is essentially entirely fat?