Hi Lance,
Thanks for that, I had seen Rocky's post on periodontal disease, but forgot about it. I did have some issues several years ago, but they seem to be fine now. I go in for cleaning 4x/year as I'm a plaque former big time, even with diligent care.
I'm not familiar with that protein powder. Is this it http://www.vitacost.com/lifetime-lifes- ... nsweetened ? I presume that there isn't a lectin issue with the powder.
I've been in the midst of testing myself to see what doesn't spike my triglycerides. Whey isolate is fine, non-animal is fine, clams are not OK {edit shrimp fails, too}, sardines are in-between. I'm kind of going through the non-vegetable sources one at a time. I've been trying to minimize powders and get protein from real food, if possible. If you follow the non-lectin approach of Gundry, and you are E4 with sensitivity to animal fat, it kind of puts you in a box.
I do Carb Nite once a week or so. The rest of the time is mostly non-starchy (non-lectin) veggies, unfiltered EVOO, coconut oil and trying to find a protein source that works. I also tend to use Dr. Wahls' ideas about balancing the veggies.
I'm not a workout fiend, but am in pretty good shape. I train with zero cardio, but strength train super slow to failure and also incorporate that with TRX Military Fitness workouts to failure. Also periodic Tabata HIIT on a Schwinn Airdyne.
Thanks again for your post and I will bring up the issue with my dentist.
New Test Results: CAC Score and LDL-P
Re: New Test Results: CAC Score and LDL-P
Tincup
E3,E4
E3,E4
Re: New Test Results: CAC Score and LDL-P
George,
Yes thats the protein powder. It was recommended by someone from the facebook group as a Gundry recommended replacement for Whey. You raise some good points. I think Chia seeds have been recommended by Gundry but I don't know whether or how much lectin content they have. I think Pea lectin is an issue, although peas on a relative basis appear to have less lectin. (I hate that last sentence because there is no quantification but I haven't found any) Also I don't know about the o6/o3 ratio of this protein. So the verdict is out in terms of lectin and/or o6/o3 issues. If I figure out these two issues, I'll post back. But I will probably buy some of this and keep some regular whey around as well.
I agree with you that I should try and get protein from food. I am changing my lifestyle back to more of a vegetarian orientation and getting 75g (my guesstimate of min protein ULC day intake - I weigh 210) of protein can be a challenge if I don't pay attention. Its now 4pm EST and I had a salad about 3pm....stupid stupid stupid.... unplanned CR is a recipe for lean mass loss.
Another option I keep meaning to explore is that supposedly if you aren't looking for protein but are looking to delay catabolism during a fast, 5g of leucine is equivalent to 20-25g of whey protein. So instead of getting up and having 25g of whey in my coffee I could just have leucine. Warning if you can't eat something that tastes terrible, leucine may not be for you.
Doesn't sound like you have either a whey or dental issue, so best of luck on your hunt.
Very interested in your triglyceride approach as my triglycerides are not great and I am being kind. I had figured that something in my protein intake was causing issues. At the time I figured it was whey, which don't spike them for you and/or eggs and things I eat eggs with. Curious if eggs / egg whites spike triglycerides or not. Haven't found a source of organ meats but I can't imagine eating those won't spike up triglycerides, but I really don't understand the triglyceride demand function.
Cheers
Yes thats the protein powder. It was recommended by someone from the facebook group as a Gundry recommended replacement for Whey. You raise some good points. I think Chia seeds have been recommended by Gundry but I don't know whether or how much lectin content they have. I think Pea lectin is an issue, although peas on a relative basis appear to have less lectin. (I hate that last sentence because there is no quantification but I haven't found any) Also I don't know about the o6/o3 ratio of this protein. So the verdict is out in terms of lectin and/or o6/o3 issues. If I figure out these two issues, I'll post back. But I will probably buy some of this and keep some regular whey around as well.
I agree with you that I should try and get protein from food. I am changing my lifestyle back to more of a vegetarian orientation and getting 75g (my guesstimate of min protein ULC day intake - I weigh 210) of protein can be a challenge if I don't pay attention. Its now 4pm EST and I had a salad about 3pm....stupid stupid stupid.... unplanned CR is a recipe for lean mass loss.
Another option I keep meaning to explore is that supposedly if you aren't looking for protein but are looking to delay catabolism during a fast, 5g of leucine is equivalent to 20-25g of whey protein. So instead of getting up and having 25g of whey in my coffee I could just have leucine. Warning if you can't eat something that tastes terrible, leucine may not be for you.
Doesn't sound like you have either a whey or dental issue, so best of luck on your hunt.
Very interested in your triglyceride approach as my triglycerides are not great and I am being kind. I had figured that something in my protein intake was causing issues. At the time I figured it was whey, which don't spike them for you and/or eggs and things I eat eggs with. Curious if eggs / egg whites spike triglycerides or not. Haven't found a source of organ meats but I can't imagine eating those won't spike up triglycerides, but I really don't understand the triglyceride demand function.
Cheers
Re: New Test Results: CAC Score and LDL-P
George, Lance - Really good info. Much to digest (pun
). I had not picked up my calorie intake with my increase in exercise yet last week when all of sudden I lost 4 lbs in one day! I've since stepped up intake, but finding hard to do, so had already started looking into protein powders. Will look into this one. Thanks!

Russ
E3/4
Eat whole, real, flavorful food - fresh and in season... and mix it up once in a while.
E3/4
Eat whole, real, flavorful food - fresh and in season... and mix it up once in a while.
Re: New Test Results: CAC Score and LDL-P
Hi Lance,
For me, is either the cholesterol (I know, eating cholesterol isn't supposed to change serum lipid values) or the animal fat. Pure protein, like whey, seem to be OK.
Also, going back through my notes this weekend. The shrimp may be reasonably OK. Exercise may also be an actor. The day I ate shrimp in the evening, I did a TRX workout to failure at lunch and then an HIIT Tabata on the Schwinn after work. Then had dinner.
The days where I had modest TG spike eating shrimp didn't have the HIIT, too.
I have many things to test and sort out. Vegan Carb Nites ALWAYS test TG <50 on my home tester (its lower limit). I'm guessing it is the vegan not the Carb Nite that makes a difference. One day, when I did a Carb Nite at home and added in sardines, I got a modest TG spike. I also pulled an NMR showing high (1800) LDL-P.
I just ordered a box of 25 TG strips for the home machine. I figure I'll go through them without issue...
For me, is either the cholesterol (I know, eating cholesterol isn't supposed to change serum lipid values) or the animal fat. Pure protein, like whey, seem to be OK.
Also, going back through my notes this weekend. The shrimp may be reasonably OK. Exercise may also be an actor. The day I ate shrimp in the evening, I did a TRX workout to failure at lunch and then an HIIT Tabata on the Schwinn after work. Then had dinner.
The days where I had modest TG spike eating shrimp didn't have the HIIT, too.
I have many things to test and sort out. Vegan Carb Nites ALWAYS test TG <50 on my home tester (its lower limit). I'm guessing it is the vegan not the Carb Nite that makes a difference. One day, when I did a Carb Nite at home and added in sardines, I got a modest TG spike. I also pulled an NMR showing high (1800) LDL-P.
I just ordered a box of 25 TG strips for the home machine. I figure I'll go through them without issue...
Tincup
E3,E4
E3,E4
Re: New Test Results: CAC Score and LDL-P
Interesting, seems to make sense that HIIT allows you to eat some animal fat that doesn't end up as triglyceride. Have no idea if that means it is better for you health wise. Shrimp stored as triglyceride versus shrimp eaten and absorbed through a different pathway. I would guess it gets absorbed and processed more directly somehow and would be better to eat any animal fat in the shadow of a big HIIT workout. I always feel better when I can dot is and cross ts. The story seems to make sense and the takeaway seems reasonable....gotta have some <insert favorite animal fat>, go crush some HIIT first... does that allow us to align our animal fat in proportion to HIIT caloric expenditure? Or even in the shadow of HIIT, is animal fat too detrimental for E4s?GeorgeN wrote: The days where I had modest TG spike eating shrimp didn't have the HIIT, too.
I have many things to test and sort out. Vegan Carb Nites ALWAYS test TG <50 on my home tester (its lower limit). I'm guessing it is the vegan not the Carb Nite that makes a difference. One day, when I did a Carb Nite at home and added in sardines, I got a modest TG spike. I also pulled an NMR showing high (1800) LDL-P.
Vegan Carb Nights? If you don't mind me asking, what is in your vegan carb nights. I still do some donut carb nights, but have recently started eliminating donuts in favor of white rice.
It seems like you do alot of exercise for Carb Night. Surely you must hit carb store depletion issues? These things really really decimate me. Last workout (Saturday full body) I drained my carb stores and wasn't really done. I am 47 and don't exercise like I used to. I feel like doing CBL is alot of excess CHO, that I need to find a way to exercise through the carb store issues. Every time I do it though I keep defaulting to CBL and more CHO stores.
For those who don't know, CBL is Carb Back Loading where you eat CHO the night or two before you're going to exercise so that you have carbs at your disposal for heavy intensity workouts. In practice people just eat carbs post workout and it works pretty well.
I probably just need to get tougher, I did have a couple of workout where I seemed to work through it. Attia mentions that as well even though he is doing aerobic below Lactate Threshold stuff.
However, I bought KetoForce and it arrived. This stuff seems expensive and I can't even tell if it is really a Ketone Ester. D'Agostino said that KF plus MCT oil is alot like a ketone ester...so I was piqued though not very educated and just figured lets do it! If I can recover and get a couple of workouts in that get my carb stores depleted, I wanted to exercise to see if it allows me to trade off CBL for Carb Night but with enhanced athletic performance when carb stores are depleted. There is a lot there to play with. Can KF + MCT displace Phosphagen /Glycolytic / Aerobic over LT threshold / Aerobic under LT threshold etc., etc. Anyway, figured if I can workout on depleted carb stores whether through being tougher or via supplementation I could get rid of a couple of relative junk food nights a week. Will try to report back as I experiment.
Re: New Test Results: CAC Score and LDL-P
Lance, forgive my many questions... and ignorance
What kind of workout are you doing? It sounds intense; like you typically "hit the wall" during workouts and are looking for a solution, right? Or, perhaps you're an elite athlete trying to improve performance?
I admit I'm pretty ignorant about this, but it seems crazy to me to eat "junk food" for two nights to have the energy/carb stores to workout. Are you typically keto-adapted? Why not simply increase your healthy carbs pre and post work-out? Have you tried Attia's Super Starch? How about adding MCT oil before an intense workout?
The glory of ketone esters, (from what I've been able to glean,) is that you can create ketones- while eating carbs, without harming your lipid profile. But, you seem to have a different goal. Help me understand; I look forward to learning more.

What kind of workout are you doing? It sounds intense; like you typically "hit the wall" during workouts and are looking for a solution, right? Or, perhaps you're an elite athlete trying to improve performance?
I admit I'm pretty ignorant about this, but it seems crazy to me to eat "junk food" for two nights to have the energy/carb stores to workout. Are you typically keto-adapted? Why not simply increase your healthy carbs pre and post work-out? Have you tried Attia's Super Starch? How about adding MCT oil before an intense workout?
The glory of ketone esters, (from what I've been able to glean,) is that you can create ketones- while eating carbs, without harming your lipid profile. But, you seem to have a different goal. Help me understand; I look forward to learning more.
Re: New Test Results: CAC Score and LDL-P
Hi Lance,
First, I have no idea if my experience is general to E4's or specific to me...
Yesterday's experiment was LCHF vegan using flax seeds and hemp powder for protein. My fasting TG's were 93, which I consider a spike. Four Carb Nite's have been <50 (limit of tester) and one 51 for TG. I thought it might be that the Carb Nite's (and days) were all vegan, but there might be an element of carb spiking to the low TG. Who knows? This is just a grand adventure trying to figure it out. My CN meals have been at Nepalese restaurants. So things like rice, pakoras, samosas (potatoes) & etc. I avoid the dal and meat dishes.
I'm 59 and though my workouts are to failure, they are purposefully not long and grueling. I ended up with idiopathic afib about 10 years ago. My path to that fun was chronic fitness. So I've learned to avoid any cardio training and save long duration activities for things that have a big fun component, like alpine skiing. I also regularly rock climb and sporadically hike, backpack, kayak & etc. I stay in good enough shape to keep up with my cardio addict friends when we're hiking in with a heavy pack & so on. I always workout fasted and that has never been an issue since becoming keto-adapted five years ago. My 28 year-old ski patroller friend will say "I'm famished & need to get something to eat," in the middle of the day. I just look at him and say I'll keep lapping the steeps till he gets back...
I'm not convinced that CN is optimal, but also I seem to get back in mild ketosis very quickly, so not sure there is a lot of damage to me. It is an open question.
First, I have no idea if my experience is general to E4's or specific to me...
Yesterday's experiment was LCHF vegan using flax seeds and hemp powder for protein. My fasting TG's were 93, which I consider a spike. Four Carb Nite's have been <50 (limit of tester) and one 51 for TG. I thought it might be that the Carb Nite's (and days) were all vegan, but there might be an element of carb spiking to the low TG. Who knows? This is just a grand adventure trying to figure it out. My CN meals have been at Nepalese restaurants. So things like rice, pakoras, samosas (potatoes) & etc. I avoid the dal and meat dishes.
I'm 59 and though my workouts are to failure, they are purposefully not long and grueling. I ended up with idiopathic afib about 10 years ago. My path to that fun was chronic fitness. So I've learned to avoid any cardio training and save long duration activities for things that have a big fun component, like alpine skiing. I also regularly rock climb and sporadically hike, backpack, kayak & etc. I stay in good enough shape to keep up with my cardio addict friends when we're hiking in with a heavy pack & so on. I always workout fasted and that has never been an issue since becoming keto-adapted five years ago. My 28 year-old ski patroller friend will say "I'm famished & need to get something to eat," in the middle of the day. I just look at him and say I'll keep lapping the steeps till he gets back...
I'm not convinced that CN is optimal, but also I seem to get back in mild ketosis very quickly, so not sure there is a lot of damage to me. It is an open question.
Tincup
E3,E4
E3,E4
Re: New Test Results: CAC Score and LDL-P
Julie,Juliegee wrote: What kind of workout are you doing? It sounds intense; like you typically "hit the wall" during workouts and are looking for a solution, right? Or, perhaps you're an elite athlete trying to improve performance?
I admit I'm pretty ignorant about this, but it seems crazy to me to eat "junk food" for two nights to have the energy/carb stores to workout. Are you typically keto-adapted? Why not simply increase your healthy carbs pre and post work-out? Have you tried Attia's Super Starch? How about adding MCT oil before an intense workout?
After thinking about my prior post I have concluded

My workouts are usually 2 HIIT and 2 weightlifting sessions a week. One weightlifting session is somewhat short the other on the weekend longer. I usually only backload after a weightlifting session so the HIIT probably wears down the carb stores and then when i lift there isn't that much left. 2 carb back loads a week normally.
Some weeks I don't have much time and just do 1 HIIT and 1 weightlifting. I am trying to change that. Those weeks I usually do a "carb night" on saturday or sunday night depending upon social convenience.
Regarding composition of my backloads. They are changing. There is a 30-45 min window supposedly where you can eat with impunity with no insulin impact. Now I have never had anyone convince me that anyone really knows when the window starts and ends if your workout is 1 hour 2 hours whatever. But it is surprising that your body almost acts as if you never had the carbs the next day. There are occasional days when I'm not in ketosis, but more often than not I'm right back in ketosis.
So as it is an open question in my mind about George doing HIIT then eating shrimp - how deleterious that animal fat is to an E4? Same kind of principle with regard the carb back loads / carb nights. If done right you are right back into ketosis and if you eat quickly after your workout there is not supposed to be an insulin impact. There are GLUT4 transporters from the muscle cells that pick up your BG. Plenty probably hits the brain as well, however. How bad are these back load carbs for you? I am supposed to have a high pain threshold (I forget the rs#!) but I hate pricking my finger. Eventually I'll man up and start testing things out regarding how high how long the BG, insulin etc.
Finally getting to the part you may be interested in.... So I want to just not have do do carb backloads on the backs of a weightlifting or other workout session. Really just want to go 7-10 days in between carb back loads and call it carb night and have it match up with a social function and be done with it. And I want to do way more hiit than weight sessions. I really want to lose these last 20 pounds (crossing fingers that all I have to lose). But I don't want to lose mitochondrial power which I associate with strength (and hiit). I've lost plenty already and you won't see me on TV for anything physically inspirational. Why do I want to do carb nights every 7-10 days? Fear of downregulation of hormones and other signaling compounds. Leptin, ghrelin, thyroid, insulin... there are a bunch of things that seem to potentially downregulate and make weight loss more difficult.
If you don't need weight loss... do you need the carb cycle? It is a good question. I think folks like Gundry indicated in his book that you have to make sure certain things in a low carb diet don't downregulate. He indicated a 30% fat would do this for you. I know others claim he has done away with this 30% advice, but again this is for people on his longevity plan...maybe the percentage has changed, maybe you don't have to beware downregulation, I don't know, but 30% was in his book.
Bottom line is I'd be careful about downregulation. Maybe you just worry about it if you ever feel weight / hunger control issues coming on. I thought I remember someone stating one of the glands can be damaged by downregulation so just be careful. If I ever lose this weight I may be a "why do I carb cycle?" person. For now I am "I do it to maintain a metabolic rate giving me a good chance of losing weight (not getting down regulated)"
With all that said, I think my Carb back loads are too low leaving me susceptible to downregulation.

I think you can you ingest ketones eat carbs be neuroprotective, and not harm your lipid profile, but this will probably take alot of testing and imaging machines to prove out.Juliegee wrote:The glory of ketone esters, (from what I've been able to glean,) is that you can create ketones- while eating carbs, without harming your lipid profile. But, you seem to have a different goal. Help me understand; I look forward to learning more.
If I can use the ketones as a performance enhancer, this would allow me to not have to do carb back loads at all. But this assumes that the KetoForce / keto ester can displace carb stores for weight lifting activity and/or HIIT. I think Keto Force might have to be processed by the liver to turn into keto ester. So that extra step means I am a little pessimistic that it will work out. But people have been raving about it (probably getting paid to!)... so I will try it....to reduce carbs, try to exercise with little / no carb stores, lose weight, do more HIIT while maintaining one or two weightlifting sessions a week etc.,etc. If it doesn't work out I can just try it out for jogging or some other activity.
Hope that is a little bit clearer?

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Re: New Test Results: CAC Score and LDL-P
Its been over a month since we put together question to submit to Dr. Gundry. Has anyone received a response or spoken to him yet?
Re: New Test Results: CAC Score and LDL-P
Great question, Giftsplash. Many/most of our diet questions have already been answered by George in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=570&hilit=Dr.+Grundy&start=50 (page 6.) Post any further questions here & we'll try to get them answered.
Russ has offered to spearhead this. He's worked to organize an E4 podcast. Last I heard, he was waiting to hear from Dr. Grundy's camp for both a personal appt. AND opportunity to request his participation...(The first appt. was cancelled.) I hope Russ chimes in with an update.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=570&hilit=Dr.+Grundy&start=50 (page 6.) Post any further questions here & we'll try to get them answered.
Russ has offered to spearhead this. He's worked to organize an E4 podcast. Last I heard, he was waiting to hear from Dr. Grundy's camp for both a personal appt. AND opportunity to request his participation...(The first appt. was cancelled.) I hope Russ chimes in with an update.