Apoe4 Gundry List of Foods

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Re: Apoe4 Gundry List of Foods

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NewRon wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:56 am Hi Tincup,

More titillating nuggets from you about bone density! I've just downloaded that book, it's very interesting. Unfortunately no bioDensity machine around here....but I'm sure you've already thought up something just as good ;)

Would I be right?

I'm interested, as my partner has just been diagnosed with osteopenia, she's 52.
If it is appropriate, there the the iOS Fracture Proof app done by Dr. Jacquish. The thesis is you have to impact at least 4.2 times your weight. I use an Otterbox case with holster and strap it to a hip with a belt. Then jump rope till I do a large jump and come down hard on the leg the phone is strapped to. Then I restart the app and do it on the other leg. I do this maybe once a week. Warning, this may not be appropriate for your partner!

I have other ideas & will post them later, along with further responses to Jan 18.
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Re: Apoe4 Gundry List of Foods

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Jan18 wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 6:57 am
Exactly. The uncoupling was his main discovery of the benefit of ketones (and other ways to signal it). Unless I read wrong, it was also key to losing weight. Truthfully, I'm so sick of weighing and recording every single bite with cronometer and watching my macros, so dropping all of that and just eating the expanded list of foods he puts forth seems a relief. I've been doing this measuring and recording for over two years (admittedly, with lapses out of frustration) and have only kept off 10 pounds. At one point, when I first began it, eating 1100-1350 calories daily and sticking to macros, I'd lost 20. Yet, unlike Miranda of his book, I AM registering ketones. What about the theory of restricting calories ultimately being harmful? I've read that only about 5% of people who lose weight ever keep it off longterm. I don't believe 95% of people go "hog wild" with food after losing weight, as my mom would insinuate I did (I didn't!) when I tried keeping lost weight off. I've been struggling with this for decades. Right now, given that many of my labs are in the recommended ranges (except total and LDL cholesterol) losing this excess weight is my #1 priority.
I have no data on what the how much uncoupling reduces the caloric impact for any particular mode of inducing coupling. Where I think this can be a problem is when you are eating a caloric dense food (i.e. fat) to induce ketones. I don't see the fat as being "free" calories. If you make ketones from fasting, heat or cold stress, or exercise & etc, that is a different story. As to restricting calories being harmful, from data I've seen, this seems to not be a problem for fasting. Also restriction where protein is sufficient. If you are in ketosis from fasting or a caloric but not protein restricted diet and you have fat to burn, this should not be an issue.
You mention protein. I've read so much on this and how controversial the amount of protein we need is. So I've followed the formula in Bredesen's book (so that my protein is not too high and thus keeping me from ketone production) which comes out to about 45 g. I'm afraid to eat more, risking stopping the ketones, since I only register between .5-1.0 most days anyway. How do I know how much is too much? Just upping it 5 g at a time and testing that I'm still registering ketones?
Question about your ketones. I know in Bredesen's books they want relatively high ketones. I think this depends on you. If you notice a cognition boost from higher levels of ketones, then by all means keep them there. Personally, my cognition doesn't change if I'm at 0.2 or 8.0 mmol/L of BHB (same for my 4/4 wife). So on a morning test, I'm between 0.2- 0.6, but the median is probably 0.4. I look at being able to make ketones as the important thing. The longer you are adapted, the better your body gets at using ketones, so the harder it is to keep high numbers (I've been adapted since 2009).
I'm blown away that you can eat 200 g of carbs! Mine are usually under 50 g. :(
We are all different and I'm an active male that weighs 170#'s. I am also not chasing high ketones.

I don't understand your insulin results ... nse here?)

What I'm talking about a lab blood draw insulin test. Point is to sample two hours after your carby meal. You should go in an talk to the lab first and tell them what you want to do, so they can tell you when they typically aren't busy and this would be easier to do. It doesn't have to be perfectly two hours, but the closer you can get to that the better.
Where do I get C8/caprylic acid MCT oil?
Here is Dave Asprey's product also here is an Amazon search. I'd select an organic one.




Tincup wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 7:59 pm weight loss, there is a link in this post on oxidative priority. Essentially, your body needs to use all other fuels before using body fat. So you want to make sure you are first eating enough protein to cover your needs. While reducing carbs can make you make ketones, so can eating a lot of fat (meaning insulin can still be relatively high and you'll make ketones if you eat enough fat). Hence you may want to also restrict fat (I'm not saying zero, but dialing it back). If you have extra fat to lose, then your body should not consider this starvation. The idea that fat is a free food on keto can be misleading. In this post, the lower part is about engineer Marty Kendall, whose wife is a T1 diabetic. From analyzing her closed loop continuous glucose monitor/insulin pump data he noticed that the fat intake, while not requiring an acute bolus of insulin will increase the insulin requirement over the day. Hopefully I've explained this clearly.
I think so....I'm going back my 2020 records when I lost the 20 pounds and compiling the daily cals/macros to get a clearer picture of what I was doing then versus this last year to see if there is a difference. I don't believe I was consuming fat above 70% most of the time. Perhaps I've upped my fat in desperation to keep the ketones going and it's working against me. The cals were as I thought: around 1100-1350. I was losing a pound a week. I'll get back to you with this info (if it even is relevant at this point). In any event, over two years of doing this unsuccessfully is ridiculous! I just want to deal with Gundry as something just isn't working.
One of my friends is a Gundry patient, she got locked up with his low protein and high fat requirements. I suggested she try Marty's approach on blood sugar, macros & micros to get the weight off & then go back to Gundry (while still eating off Gundry's list) after she'd taken the weight off. Last I communicated with her this was successful. If you PM me your email address, I can put you in contact with her.
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Re: Apoe4 Gundry List of Foods

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NewRon wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:56 am Hi Tincup,

More titillating nuggets from you about bone density! I've just downloaded that book, it's very interesting. Unfortunately no bioDensity machine around here....but I'm sure you've already thought up something just as good ;)

Would I be right?

I'm interested, as my partner has just been diagnosed with osteopenia, she's 52.
Note, neither my 4/4 wife (62) or I (66) have bone density issues. On our last DEXA scan 4 1/2 years ago, we both had positive t-scores. Her's was very high.

Isometric exercises

Dr Kiveloff developed a brief isometric exercise, initially for blood pressure. This is a letter he wrote in 1988:
kiveloff1988.jpg
(link if you can't see image)

More explanation.
Other articles.




Whole body vibration for osteoporosis. The PDF is from the PowerPlate brand. I purchased a less expensive machine on Amazon. The Power Plate will do 30-40 Hz and 2-4 mm amplitude. Mine does 15-40 Hz and 1.5 - 3 mm amplitude. I usually use 1.5 mm & 30 Hz for exercise and 3mm for trigger point release.

Power Plate video for osteoporosis exercises.

I tend to do isometrics on mine. These include 6 reps of 6 seconds max hold on an Isochain, though I generally use the ground plate from an X3 Bar and climbing webbing rather than the plate that comes with it and the spring and chain. This book has many iso exercises. I usually do chest press, triceps press, overhead press, Zercher squat, drag biceps curl, bent row, deadlift and calf raise. On the chest press and triceps pushdown, I use wide (2.5-3") webbing that has enough surface area that I don't get bruising. Here are the 8 exercises as demoed for the X3 Bar, except I do a Zercher squat.

Sometimes I will use ~30" of 1" climbing webbing tied in a circle with a water knot (if pulled horizontally, it is about 12" long). I use this to emulate an Isokinator and do the exercises as laid out in their app. iOS Google. Long video. I do this on or off the vib plate.

Boron supplementation looks very interesting for this. I do it, but currently at 6 mg/day. Apparently areas with low boron in the soil are associated with high levels of arthritis and conversely areas with high levels have very low levels of arthritis (and osteoporosis).

Jorge Flechas MD lecture to the dentists
Other Flechas lectures
FLechas.Boron-and-Inflammation.pdf

Essentiality of boron for healthy bones and joints.

Borax FB group Lots of info in the files section.

Borax article

Earthclinic thread on Borax

References at the bottom of this page for boron and also iodine.

Page on Rex Newnham, Australian who figured out Boron can help arthritis.

Iodine supplementation

The urinary iodine level was significantly lower in women with postmenopausal osteoporosis

My understanding.

Fluorine/fluoride & bromine/bromide are halide ions that compete with iodine in the body. With sufficient iodine, the body can be purged of these. Excess bromine (which is ubiquitous as a fire retardant in clothes, carpet & furniture can be toxic). Hence a sea salt detox is suggested prior to and while taking the iodine, but to separate the salt water from the iodine by at least 45 minutes.

Other cofactors include
selenium - test RBC and want at the high end.
various B vitamins including B1, B2, B3

Test is a 24 urine loading test. Lay off iodine for at least 3 days, then take 50 mg and collect urine for 24 hours. Can also test the same urine for fluoride and bromine.

Since I've had afib for 18 years, I've stepped in gently. I do take 25 mg iodine/day (in the form of iodine + iodide as suggested by Dr. Brownstein and have for several months. Have had a lot going on in my life so haven't done the testing yet. My morning temp has increased from the upper 96's to ~97.3 F. Evening from 97.8 ish to 98.3. So I think my thyroid is reacting to this. After starting iodine, it is normal for TSH to increase for some months, then drop. Jimmy Bertram (see FB reference below) has a post on this.

Here are the resources

Brownstein is an integrative doc in Michigan. I respect his work. His book has a lot in it on women's issues & iodine.
Dr. Brownstein's book

Iodine supplements as recommended by Dr. Brownstein.
Iodine loading 24 hour urine test.

Bromine detox articles:

One &
two

FB group on iodine. See the posts by Jimmy Bertram

An iodine Google Doc with lots of links (some overlap here).

Off topic of bones, but iodine for brain & women's health, Dr. Jorge Flechas podcast.

Optimizing Vitamins D3, K2 as MK7 & MK4, & A

Manganese

Magnesium
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Re: Apoe4 Gundry List of Foods

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Tincup,

Thanks SO much, that's amazing information!!!
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Re: Apoe4 Gundry List of Foods

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Sorry to hear about your frustration. I am a ApoE4/E3 and I too get frustrated when I about these dietary restrictions for ApoE4s, especially when I am not much of a fan of olive oil and avocados.

Regarding salmon, I do remember Ivor Cummins mentioning several times that his former sponsor David Bobbett, who is an ApoE4 with a high coronary artery calcium (CAC) score, eats more fish. He says that he develops high cholesterol and inflammation when he eats beef and saturated fat.

David Bobbett did mention that he has stopped eating saturated fat and wheat (https://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/he ... 32314.html).

You could see if eating macadamia nuts help as an alternative to olive oil since unlike other nuts and seeds, they are low in saturated fat and omega-6s. I liked eating nuts and seeds but read to keep them as occasional treats because of the omega-6 content.

Dr. Peter Attia mentions telling one of his patients to switch to olive oil and macadamia nuts on a ketogenic diet because the saturated fat was causing his LDL particle count to go through the roof (https://peterattiamd.com/davefeldmantranscript/).
Always caring, Sabby, ApoE4/E3
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Re: Apoe4 Gundry List of Foods

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Tincup wrote: Sat May 28, 2022 4:05 pm
Hi Tincup,
Note, neither my 4/4 wife (62) or I (66) have bone density issues. On our last DEXA scan 4 1/2 years ago, we both had positive t-scores. Her's was very high.

Tincup, you are always full of amazing information. So complete, thoroughly referenced with lots of links for those of us who are curious to explore. What I like about your presentations - are that you give us all possible reference material to apply to our own situations - and the you leave it to us to apply the science to ourselves and our particular situations.

But I am interested in your commentary also! Especially because you have so much experience. So I have read over some of the information and some of the research that validates the Power Plate and the exercising with a vibration plate as opposed to just normal gym resistance training. I am assuming that all control groups started with people who previously didn't exercise and previously had a sedentary lifestyle. (The study didn't really say what baseline of exercise the people had before they started training in control group 1 or control group 2 - so I assumed they had none).

You also mentioned you and your wife are in your 60's and previous Dexascan's from 4 years ago indicated your were in positive territory for your T scores. Well, my husband is 85 and I am 70 and we've had a life of athleticism and much uphill training and hiking ( my husband was a high altitude mountaineer) - we live in the Sierra Nevada at 8000 ft and hike uphill every day. We believed we had it covered for osteoporosis after many years of carrying backpacks in the Sierras! And we continued today with uphill hiking and gym resistance training 3 times a week. We have just discovered that my highest spine I believe it is the Thoracic has just crossed over for Osteoporosis (T-2.6) with everything else being normal or osteopenia. My husband has just crossed over with one hip being osteoporotic at T-2.6. Neither my husband nor I did any HRT in our later years - being completely oblivious to the functional medicine world and we believed our Vegan diet and our good healthy outdoor exercise would carry us through. I recently discovered I was 3/4 and I am now on Bredesen/Gundry protocol and HRT. But my husband is not on HRT. We are considering Fosomax. We also read your article from the MD who was was a Rehabilitative Medicine specialist from the 1980 that said once you have osteoporosis it is irreversible?

We've also read the information on the Biodensity machines. There are two in Palm Desert area - which is only accessible to us in the winter time. And the cost is prohibitive - let alone the 45 minute drive it would take twice a week (each week) to access this equipment. We are still considering the Fosomax because we are afraid of a break.We are no longer in the preventative category.

Tincup, do you have any thoughts?
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Re: Apoe4 Gundry List of Foods

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Gail wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:31 am
We believed we had it covered for osteoporosis after many years of carrying backpacks in the Sierras! And we continued today with uphill hiking and gym resistance training 3 times a week. We have just discovered that my highest spine I believe it is the Thoracic has just crossed over for Osteoporosis (T-2.6) with everything else being normal or osteopenia. My husband has just crossed over with one hip being osteoporotic at T-2.6. Neither my husband nor I did any HRT in our later years - being completely oblivious to the functional medicine world and we believed our Vegan diet and our good healthy outdoor exercise would carry us through. I recently discovered I was 3/4 and I am now on Bredesen/Gundry protocol and HRT. But my husband is not on HRT. We are considering Fosomax. We also read your article from the MD who was was a Rehabilitative Medicine specialist from the 1980 that said once you have osteoporosis it is irreversible?
Hi Gail, first I took the liberty of using my mod powers to edit your post to not include what you typed in the quoted material.

All that follows is my personal opinion. I have no medical training!

My mother was put on the Fosamax category of meds (bisphosphonates). It was not a good thing for her as she got jawbone necrosis from it and the dentist would not work on her. So not high on my list. My understanding is bone is always being created and destroyed. When this gets out of equilibrium, with destruction > creation you get osteoporosis (or osteopenia in the early stages). What the bisphosphonates do is slow down destruction, however, as I understand it, what you end up with is brittle bones.

Number 1 on my list would be investigating borax (from what I understand, borax has much better efficacy than just a boron supplement). I would start with Dr. Flechas' presentations that I linked above. For your information, Borax is about 11% boron by weight. From measurements on my scale that goes to 0.01 gram, around 1/8 tsp of Borax is about 60 mg of boron. What can happen, again from my reading is a herxheimer reaction. This is because the borax can kill off some bad bugs in your gut, but your body can react to the byproducts of the dead bugs. This is usually transitory. A way to deal with this is start with a low dose and ramp up over time. The Borax mineral itself is made up of Sodium, Oxygen and Boron to create Sodium Tetraborate (Na2B4O7 • 10H2O), you want like 20 Mule Team Borax that has nothing else in it.

Number 2 would be strength training as prescribed by Dr. Doug McGuff in his book Body by Science. McGuff gave a couple of lectures at IHMC; one, two. They are similar, but in at least one he talks about how strong muscles send a signal to the bones to stay around. His program, in a nutshell, has people do super slow strength training with 4-8 exercises, with each lift being to failure in ~90 seconds. He describes this in the second lecture at the end in the Q&A. He is an ER doc who also runs a small exercise facility. After watching the lectures and reading his book, you might book a remote consult with him and get his advice. His program is based on research done in the early 80's on osteoporotic women. The super slow was so that they would not damage the women. Sounds like you have access to a facility with exercise machines where you could implement his program.

1 & 2 are NOT mutually exclusive. Rather than using machines, I do isometrics using a 90 second protocol called Timed Static Contractions. McGuff also shows TSC in this video. I will also do these on my vibration plate. I have all kinds of toys to implement the TSC's with.

Trainer Drew Baye is also a huge proponent of TSC and has lots of info on it.

Here is a written summary of his IHMC presentation.

Hope I haven't included too much here!
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Re: Apoe4 Gundry List of Foods

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Tincup wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 2:40 pm

All that follows is my personal opinion. I have no medical training!

Number 1 on my list would be investigating borax (from what I understand, borax has much better efficacy than just a boron supplement). I would start with Dr. Flechas' presentations that I linked above. For your information, Borax is about 11% boron by weight. From measurements on my scale that goes to 0.01 gram, around 1/8 tsp of Borax is about 60 mg of boron. What can happen, again from my reading is a herxheimer reaction. This is because the borax can kill off some bad bugs in your gut, but your body can react to the byproducts of the dead bugs. This is usually transitory. A way to deal with this is start with a low dose and ramp up over time. The Borax mineral itself is made up of Sodium, Oxygen and Boron to create Sodium Tetraborate (Na2B4O7 • 10H2O), you want like 20 Mule Team Borax that has nothing else in it.

Number 2 would be strength training as prescribed by Dr. Doug McGuff in his book Body by Science. McGuff gave a couple of lectures at IHMC; one, two. They are similar, but in at least one he talks about how strong muscles send a signal to the bones to stay around. His program, in a nutshell, has people do super slow strength training with 4-8 exercises, with each lift being to failure in ~90 seconds. He describes this in the second lecture at the end in the Q&A. He is an ER doc who also runs a small exercise facility. After watching the lectures and reading his book, you might book a remote consult with him and get his advice. His program is based on research done in the early 80's on osteoporotic women. The super slow was so that they would not damage the women. Sounds like you have access to a facility with exercise machines where you could implement his program.


Trainer Drew Baye is also a huge proponent of TSC and has lots of info on it.

Here is a written summary of his IHMC presentation.

Hope I haven't included too much here!
Hi Tincup, I just wanted to follow-up on this thread and thank you for all your resources on osteoporosis. And also let you know how we are progressing. My husband and I did a lot of research (for us! - not compared to you!) with your links and info you provided.

We did find some research that indicated the poor quality bone matrix was evident in people taking Fosomax for over 5 years. We also found some videos of Harvard endocrinologists who recommended that the safety of Fosomax was not good after the 5 year period and after 5 years if you had not built up new bone material there were other drugs to try. We also found some research that necrosis of the jaw occurred more frequently if you had a bone involved dental procedure. And best advice was if you needed that dental procedure was to stop the Fosomax for awhile. So we felt our best option was to try the Fosomax and see if we increased bone density and next Dexascan.

The Biodensity machines were cost prohibitive - as they were $400/month in our area and both my husband and I would need treatments ($800/month a little bit out of our budget range!).

My husband read the "Body by Design" book and both of us have incorporated some of the suggestions in the book into our routine. Especially careful to go to muscle exhaustion every time we finish a set. We listened to one Flechas podcast. We have incorporated Boron into our supplements. And we are taking Fosomax. So we will see how this goes at our next Dexascan.

Of further interest, (we are outdoor enthusiasts - and are constantly hiking/snowshoeing/ microcleating in the Sierras) we both have taken falls. My husband fell on his back and broke 3 processes of his spine. He was laid up for 6 weeks. I just went splat (ha ha!) moving fast on a trail that was rocky and had lots of exposed roots. I ended up with a bruised/broken rib!! Very painful! So we are sure hoping that our treatment strategy is helping. Maybe we will request a Dexascan with a year follow-up instead of the medically recommended two.

Thank you for the all the information, tools, and links you provided to help us!

Gail 3/4
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Re: Apoe4 Gundry List of Foods

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Gail wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 7:02 am Thank you for the all the information, tools, and links you provided to help us!
Hi Gail, you are certainly welcome! And here is to good bone progress for you and your husband!!

I'm 67 and Monday took my car to a mechanic shop 1/2-3/4 mile from my house & walked home (without microcleats on my Keen sandals). It had snowed lightly overnight. Not a big deal, but we've had a lot of previous snow, so it hid the existing ice. On the way home I slipped a number of times on the slick ice & once fell hard on my hip. Fortunately nothing but soft tissue irritation, so my version of an updated DEXA (my daughter in law is a physiology PhD student & has access to a DEXA in her lab, so may ask her for a real updated scan)! I put the KAATSU BFR bands on my legs and ran a bunch of pressure on/off cycles, which helped a lot, even though my point of impact was above where the bands are placed on my upper legs. I can't explain the mechanism, but it certainly worked.
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