Apoe4 Gundry List of Foods

[Jan18]

First, thank you Tincup, for answering me so fast and for all of the information. I've already looked up the Osteogenic Loading book and thinking about ordering it from Amazon. But is his research done only on men? Quite a difference in muscular composition between men and women and I'm wondering if it applies to women, too.

My Summary: Unlocking the Keto Code, the point of the book is that ketones signal mitochondrial uncoupling. That is the objective. There are other ways to signal uncoupling including heat & cold stress, increased serum CO2 from breathing techniques, intermittent hypoxia, melatonin & polyphenols. It is like a unified field theory for hormetic stressors.

Exactly. The uncoupling was his main discovery of the benefit of ketones (and other ways to signal it). Unless I read wrong, it was also key to losing weight. Truthfully, I'm so sick of weighing and recording every single bite with cronometer and watching my macros, so dropping all of that and just eating the expanded list of foods he puts forth seems a relief. I've been doing this measuring and recording for over two years (admittedly, with lapses out of frustration) and have only kept off 10 pounds. At one point, when I first began it, eating 1100-1350 calories daily and sticking to macros, I'd lost 20. Yet, unlike Miranda of his book, I AM registering ketones. What about the theory of restricting calories ultimately being harmful? I've read that only about 5% of people who lose weight ever keep it off longterm. I don't believe 95% of people go "hog wild" with food after losing weight, as my mom would insinuate I did (I didn't!) when I tried keeping lost weight off. I've been struggling with this for decades. Right now, given that many of my labs are in the recommended ranges (except total and LDL cholesterol) losing this excess weight is my #1 priority.

You mention protein. I've read so much on this and how controversial the amount of protein we need is. So I've followed the formula in Bredesen's book (so that my protein is not too high and thus keeping me from ketone production) which comes out to about 45 g. I'm afraid to eat more, risking stopping the ketones, since I only register between .5-1.0 most days anyway. How do I know how much is too much? Just upping it 5 g at a time and testing that I'm still registering ketones?

I'm blown away that you can eat 200 g of carbs! Mine are usually under 50 g.

On insulin, my friend Catherine Crofts did her PhD thesis on the late Joseph Kraft MD's data on oral glucose tolerance tests with insulin assay ( A search on posts about Crofts here and Kraft here.there are posts about his and her work on this board). What she told me is that fasting insulin is very pulsatile, so changes a fair amount from moment to moment. So a difference between five and seven may not be that big a deal. Her suggestion was a "stress test," Eat your carbiest meal of the day, then test exactly two hours after finishing. From memory, insulin >50 bad, <30 good and in between needs more testing.

I don't understand your insulin results. >50? <30? What test gives you those results? The Keto Mojo just measures glucose and ketones. Do you actually have to eat the carby meal and immediately go to a lab for that test afterwards? (Am I being really dense here?)

For ApoE4's, Gundry would say MCT oil (especially C8/caprylic acid) is OK. Too much sat fat in the others. He told my 4/4 wife to eat modest amounts of sheep or goat cheese. His exact words can be found in the transcript of the consult linked in this post.

Where do I get C8/caprylic acid MCT oil?

weight loss, there is a link in this post on oxidative priority. Essentially, your body needs to use all other fuels before using body fat. So you want to make sure you are first eating enough protein to cover your needs. While reducing carbs can make you make ketones, so can eating a lot of fat (meaning insulin can still be relatively high and you'll make ketones if you eat enough fat). Hence you may want to also restrict fat (I'm not saying zero, but dialing it back). If you have extra fat to lose, then your body should not consider this starvation. The idea that fat is a free food on keto can be misleading. In this post, the lower part is about engineer Marty Kendall, whose wife is a T1 diabetic. From analyzing her closed loop continuous glucose monitor/insulin pump data he noticed that the fat intake, while not requiring an acute bolus of insulin will increase the insulin requirement over the day. Hopefully I've explained this clearly.

I think so....I'm going back my 2020 records when I lost the 20 pounds and compiling the daily cals/macros to get a clearer picture of what I was doing then versus this last year to see if there is a difference. I don't believe I was consuming fat above 70% most of the time. Perhaps I've upped my fat in desperation to keep the ketones going and it's working against me. The cals were as I thought: around 1100-1350. I was losing a pound a week. I'll get back to you with this info (if it even is relevant at this point). In any event, over two years of doing this unsuccessfully is ridiculous! I just want to deal with Gundry as something just isn't working.

[Jan18]

Obviously, over consuming calories doesn't make sense. Was recently chatting with a friend who is doing Gundry's version of fasting mimicking diet. Gundry says drop down to 900 calories on the fasting days. Well, my friend only weighs 100 pounds & like you, her daily intake is only a few 100 calories more than that. I referred her to Valter Longo's research and his specifications. Gundry is writing for the masses, with a broad brush. You have to take the concepts and implement what makes sense in your case.

Reread this in your previous post, Tincup. Will look at Valter Longo's research.

[Tincup]

First, thank you Tincup, for answering me so fast and for all of the information. I've already looked up the Osteogenic Loading book and thinking about ordering it from Amazon. But is his research done only on men? Quite a difference in muscular composition between men and women and I'm wondering if it applies to women, too.
[

I will answer more later. For this, the answer is the author initially developed his device for his osteoporotic mother and did his PhD research on this. So clearly applies to both sexes.

[Jan18]

I will answer more later. For this, the answer is the author initially developed his device for his osteoporotic mother and did his PhD research on this. So clearly applies to both sexes.

Ecstatic to hear this!

[SusanJ]

Jan, what time of day are you eating? There are studies that suggest that sliding your eating window to the morning, along with more calories in the morning, matches up better with our circadian clocks with regards to energy metabolism. Here's one of the studies.

High Caloric Intake at Breakfast vs. Dinner Differentially Influences Weight Loss of Overweight and Obese Women (2013)

Meal timing and feeding schedule exert strong entraining effects on peripheral oscillators over‐riding rhythmic signals transmitted by the SCN (16, 17). Meal timing has crucial implications on weight gain, appetite, and glucose and lipid metabolism (3-6, 18). Indeed, skipping breakfast and/or overeating in the evening, play a significant role in weight gain and obesity (19-21). It was shown in animals that the daily first meal (equivalent to breakfast) determines the circadian phase of peripheral clocks, whereas the last meal (equivalent to dinner) leads to lipogenesis and adipose tissue accumulation (5). Moreover, it was shown in breakfast skippers that the activation of lipolysis was delayed, whereas lipogenesis increased (22, 23). These data are congruent with previous studies reporting that patients with night‐eating habits are inclined to being obese (24). We recently showed that the same caloric intake in a different time window during the day led to a different body weight, emphasizing the role of clock resetting in energy homeostasis (25).

Meal composition, in addition to timing, also appears to influence satiety. Specifically, protein consumed at breakfast (compared to lunch or dinner) leads to greater initial and sustained feeling of fullness, increased satiety and reduced concentrations of the appetite‐regulating hormone ghrelin (20, 21, 26, 27). Recently, we have shown that compared to a low‐carbohydrate diet, an isocaloric diet with high‐calorie breakfast promoted sustained weight loss with ghrelin suppression and reduced diet‐induced compensatory changes in food cravings (26). Also, increasing carbohydrate intake in the morning has been suggested to have a long‐term protective effect against the development of metabolic syndrome (28). However, few studies examined the association between time‐of‐day of nutrient intake and the metabolic syndrome. This study was conducted to test whether a change in meal timing, switching between a high‐calorie breakfast and a high‐calorie dinner, with an overall similar daily caloric intake has a different impact on weight loss, appetite scores, and other characteristics of the metabolic syndrome.

Body weight decreased significantly (P < 0.0001) in both the BF and D groups over 12 weeks. However, compared with the D group, the BF group showed a 2.5-fold greater weight loss (−8.7 ± 1.4 vs. −3.6 ± 1.5 kg, respectively) (One-way ANOVA P < 0.0001) (Figure 1A, Table 2). As a result, the BMI was significantly different between the groups (P < 0.0001, post-hoc Tukey Kramer), with 10% reduction in the BF group and only 5% reduction in the D group (Table 2). Participants assigned to the BF plan also showed a greater reduction in waist circumference than participants assigned to the D plan, both at 6 and 12-week follow-ups (−8.5 ± 1.9 vs. −3.9 ± 1.4 cm, respectively) (P < 0.0001, post-hoc Tukey Kramer) (Figure 1B).

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/oby.20460

"BF" is breakfast group and "D" is dinner. You'll note the study also shows improvements in insulin sensitivity (which is also shown in other studies).

[Jan18]

Jan, what time of day are you eating? There are studies that suggest that sliding your eating window to the morning, along with more calories in the morning, matches up better with our circadian clocks with regards to energy metabolism. Here's one of the studies.

Thanks, Susan J. Yes, I had read studies like this, so between the morning preferred time and Gundry's or Bredesen's "putting off breakfast until later" and 16 hour fasting window, I most often eat first at 11AM and second done by 6 or 7PM. Usually my calories were fairly even, but I've now started having 60-70% of them in the early meal.

I cannot figure this out, except that I've been eating more protein than the six weeks in May 2020 when I started in earnest using cronometer.com and the Keto Mojo, during which I was losing a pound a week. I just did my averages and the daily average macro percentages don't even come out to 100% (what's up with THAT, cronometer.com???) and triple checked all of the figures.

During that period, I averaged 1226 calories a day, 57.5% fat, 18.3% protein and 18.4% carbs. (94.2%???) So it appears I was NOT in the 70%+ fat that I thought I was! (Cronometer being new to me back then, I never clicked on the macro circle which shows percentages, just tried to get as close as I could to the colored bars showing how many grams of each macro I was supposed to have.) And I was using net carbs, not total carbs.

Maybe that was the winning ticket? I wasn't even eating a larger percentage of calories at my 11AM meal at that time.

BTW, given my physical limitations, I wasn't even exercising. My records show that using the Keto-Mojo's formula of glucose divided by 18 divided by ketones, I was in moderate ketosis, even on three days when I "cheated" and had more carbs than I should have in the way of ice cream on two and potatoes on one. My ketones ranged between .5-1.3 with equally as many being under 1.0 as above. Wow, am I glad I kept these records!

I'm thinking I have been consuming too much protein and fat, since I didn't remember what I was consuming back then and have been trying really hard to hit that 70-75% f, 20-25% protein, 5-10% carb ratio!

Your opinion?

[Jan18]

Essentially, your body needs to use all other fuels before using body fat. So you want to make sure you are first eating enough protein to cover your needs. While reducing carbs can make you make ketones, so can eating a lot of fat (meaning insulin can still be relatively high and you'll make ketones if you eat enough fat). Hence you may want to also restrict fat (I'm not saying zero, but dialing it back). If you have extra fat to lose, then your body should not consider this starvation. The idea that fat is a free food on keto can be misleading. In this post, the lower part is about engineer Marty Kendall, whose wife is a T1 diabetic. From analyzing her closed loop continuous glucose monitor/insulin pump data he noticed that the fat intake, while not requiring an acute bolus of insulin will increase the insulin requirement over the day. Hopefully I've explained this clearly.

Tincup! Would you be so kind as to look at my reply to Susan J? I don't know how to CC you in a reply to her to give you the same info and get your opinion! I did what I said I was going to do below and reported the results of a six week period that I catalogued using cronometer and Keto Mojo. I had started losing weight before I started faithfully recording and then lost some afterwards when I kind of went on autopilot. Total was 20:

I think so....I'm going back my 2020 records when I lost the 20 pounds and compiling the daily cals/macros to get a clearer picture of what I was doing then versus this last year to see if there is a difference. I don't believe I was consuming fat above 70% most of the time. Perhaps I've upped my fat in desperation to keep the ketones going and it's working against me. The cals were as I thought: around 1100-1350. I was losing a pound a week. I'll get back to you with this info (if it even is relevant at this point). In any event, over two years of doing this unsuccessfully is ridiculous! I just want to deal with Gundry as something just isn't working.

[SusanJ]

Yes, I had read studies like this, so between the morning preferred time and Gundry's or Bredesen's "putting off breakfast until later" and 16 hour fasting window, I most often eat first at 11AM and second done by 6 or 7PM.

You might still look at sliding still earlier. Like say start at 9:00 and be done by 4-5:00 pm.

I just looked at The End of Alzheimer's Program, and it says you can achieve a longer fasting window by having early dinners, light dinners, or skip dinners, or alternatively, skip breakfasts. So, Bredesen is not specifically urging people to put off breakfast until later, just shorten the window of eating. A later breakfast just might work better for some people due to their schedules, while an earlier breakfast might be a better match to one's circadian rhythms.

Most studies looking at early feeding usually start their breakfasts at 8:00AM.

Here's another study suggesting fat loss might be due to increased fat oxidation as a result of an earlier start to eating.

Early Time-Restricted Feeding Reduces Appetite and Increases Fat Oxidation But Does Not Affect Energy Expenditure in Humans (2019)

Meal-timing interventions facilitate weight loss primarily by decreasing appetite rather than by increasing energy expenditure. eTRF may also increase fat loss by increasing fat oxidation.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs ... /oby.22518

[Jan18]

You might still look at sliding still earlier. Like say start at 9:00 and be done by 4-5:00 pm.

Is that for people who are still working and usually get up by 6 or 7AM and go to bed by around 10PM? I'm retired and usually get up about 8AM and go to bed between 11PM-midnight. I stop eating usually about 5 hours before bed. But 7 hours before going to bed seems a bit extreme.

I'll keep an open mind about that, but I think I may have found the key by the other things I told you in that last reply. After all, it was working before! And the "upped" fat and protein fit with what Gundry says about your body becoming so energy-efficient with ketones that it burns less energy. So I'll go back to what I was doing when I was losing a pound a week first for a while and see what happens. If I'm still having issues, I'll try the earlier schedule and try transitioning to going to bed between 10-11PM and getting up at 7AM. Thanks!

P.S. It was Gundry who suggested putting off breakfast until later. I think he said his first meal is around 10AM (and I think he meant for people on typical "work" schedules).

[NewRon]

Hi Tincup,

More titillating nuggets from you about bone density! I've just downloaded that book, it's very interesting. Unfortunately no bioDensity machine around here....but I'm sure you've already thought up something just as good

Would I be right?

I'm interested, as my partner has just been diagnosed with osteopenia, she's 52.