Sleep

[kayakmac08]

Hi all,

Just got my first Fitbit a month ago and have been alarmed to see that I average about 6.5 hours of sleep/night, almost always with REM and Deep Sleep levels that are well below the recommended amounts. This is despite my best efforts to block out a full 8-9 hours each night and practice decent sleep hygiene. My body just stubbornly resists going into these two sleep stages.

Of course I am suspending total belief in the Fitbit, yet I figure it's not complete hogwash.

And I know that a possible culprit in all this is my level of caffeine consumption (400-600mg/day historically). I have cut it down to more like 200-300, and am cutting it off by 10-11a, but so far this has done nothing. I also exercise like a maniac (never later than 6pm), so there's no sedentary lifestyle contributing.

Anyway, wondering how many of you have found problems with quality sleep (especially REM and Deep), and what has helped. I know it's a common problem for E4s but I am interested in anecdotes and personal stories.

Thanks!
Justin

[kayakmac08]

Extra details: I don't have sleep apnea [normal blood oxygen at night, according to FitBit, and have had two take-home sleep tests (2016 and 2020) that also confirmed no apnea]. Granted, I haven't had an overnight in a sleep lab to absolutely confirm. Also, I don't drink alcohol at night and try to stop drinking coffee by around noon each day (might cut it entirely though). Also, I try to avoid screens and heavy food consumption in the evening. And I've been reading the Wiki and diving into Matthew Walker's research and recommendations as I search for solutions. Needless to say, his interview with Rhonda Patrick is highly distressing (although I'm grateful for it!). My average amount of deep sleep per night over the last 30 days is 62 min, whereas the recommended amount for males my age is 90-110 min. Apparently this trend tends to get worse with age, and accelerates a person down the path toward AD. Yipes!

[NF52]

Extra details: I don't have sleep apnea [normal blood oxygen at night, according to FitBit, and have had two take-home sleep tests (2016 and 2020) that also confirmed no apnea]... My average amount of deep sleep per night over the last 30 days is 62 min, whereas the recommended amount for males my age is 90-110 min. Apparently this trend tends to get worse with age, and accelerates a person down the path toward AD. Yipes!

As a 33 year old male in great health, who exercises daily and doesn't report waking up tired, you are just slightly under the recommended 7 (up to 8) hours of sleep per night. More importantly, at 62 minutes of deep sleep during 390 minutes of total sleep, you are in deep sleep 16% of the time--solidly within what the National Institute of Sciences considers normal deep sleep duration!

The "recommended" amounts you quoted represent 23% of 6.5-8 hours of sleep. BUT--23% is at the high end of NORMAL deep sleep, according to a 2006 Sleep Disorders and Sleep Deprivation: An Unmet Public Health Problem. which was quoted in this 2019 Healthline article: How Much Deep, Light, and REM Sleep Do You Need?

In healthy adults, about 13 to 23 percent of your sleep is deep sleep. So if you sleep for 8 hours a night, that’s roughly 62 to 110 minutes.

Here's the 2006 source on Stage 3 and 4 deep sleep:

Sleep stages 3 and 4 are collectively referred to as slow-wave sleep (SWS), most of which occurs during the first third of the night. Each has distinguishing characteristics. Stage 3 lasts only a few minutes and constitutes about 3 to 8 percent of sleep. The EEG shows increased high-voltage, slow-wave activity (Figure 2-2).

The last NREM stage is stage 4, which lasts approximately 20 to 40 minutes in the first cycle and makes up about 10 to 15 percent of sleep. The arousal threshold is highest for all NREM stages in stage 4. This stage is characterized by increased amounts of high-voltage, slow-wave activity on the EEG (Carskadon and Dement, 2005).

My own sleep habits as someone with 4/4 have been remarkably consistent for decades--as have my husband's: he does well with 6.5 hours and I'm gonna be unhappy if he wakes me up before I've had 7.5 hours!

Enjoy having that extra hour in your waking life.

[NewRon]

Just for info on the Fitbit sleep tracking, this guy says that Fitbits are the most accurate sleep trackers in production. He tests all sleep trackers against various EEG sleep monitors. He's well worth a watch (sorry, couldn't resist ).

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UChNWxr ... Sevon1X93g

[kayakmac08]

Thank you, both! Those are helpful nuggets of info, and have broadened my perspective on this topic. I think I'm just a bit of a perfectionist and desiring optimization (shooting for the high end of the bell curve for total sleep duration and deep sleep duration). Happy update: I started cutting off caffeine at 10am, alcohol at dinnertime, and hung some blackout curtains in the bedroom, and my sleep (and wakefulness) has improved markedly since the changes were made! Last night I got almost 2 hours of deep sleep, and I can really feel the difference. While I don't tend to struggle with severe fatigue by any means, I am rather inclined toward brain fog and poor ability to focus/select relevant stimuli. But these past few days have brought new sharpness and mental control. Huzzah!

[NF52]

Last night I got almost 2 hours of sleep sleep, and I can really feel the difference. …these past few days have brought new sharpness and mental control. Huzzah!

Great self-hacking! Thanks for sharing your success for others to learn from.

[floramaria]

Happy update: I started cutting off caffeine at 10am, alcohol at dinnertime, and hung some blackout curtains in the bedroom, and my sleep (and wakefulness) has improved markedly since the changes were made! Last night I got almost 2 hours of deep sleep, and I can really feel the difference. While I don't tend to struggle with severe fatigue by any means, I am rather inclined toward brain fog and poor ability to focus/select relevant stimuli. But these past few days have brought new sharpness and mental control. Huzzah!

Congratulations ! Great that you were able to make these changes that resulted in better sleep. Thanks for sharing what worked for you.

[Tincup]

Anyway, wondering how many of you have found problems with quality sleep (especially REM and Deep), and what has helped. I know it's a common problem for E4s but I am interested in anecdotes and personal stories.

Hi Justin,

As I posted here, when I first got an Oura Ring, my deep sleep was 0-3 minutes/night. Obviously not good!. I was at loose ends trying to figure out how to improve this. I randomly came across Dr. Coca's book (linked in the link) on pulse testing for food sensitivity. For me, I had some foods that increased my pulse a non-subtle 15-25 BPM 30-60 minutes after eating. After eliminating them, my deep sleep went up to around 30-90 minutes/night. I'd like to improve that more, but at nearly 67, I've not yet found the solution. Interestingly, my average pulse overnight dropped from 63 BPM to 45 ish with this change (& no change in exercise). This is an ongoing work in progress. Whenever my Oura ring chides me for too much exercise (because "my heart rate dropped late"), I know it was because of food, not exercise. A "bad night" now is an average BPM of 52 with 30 minutes of deep sleep.

Other things that can help:

- contrast shower 30-60 minutes before bed. 10 seconds hot, 20 seconds cold for 8 rounds with the last cold lasting for 2 minutes
- 3 rounds Wim Hof breathing followed by reduced breathing (here is a reduced breathing mp3).
- listening to Yoga Nidra scripts. The Insight Timer app has many of these. These can also be known as NSDR or Non Sleep Deep Rest. See Huberman NSDR , NSDR 1 , NSDR 2, meditation podcast from Stanford neuroscientist Andrew Huberman.
- there are also
- SusanJ's thread on how to get to or back to sleep here. as well as the mySleepButton app that automates it.
- The Reveri self hypnosis app
- Hypnobox self hypnosis app

- A cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) app free trial, but relatively expensive to continue. CBT article. CBT book: Goodnight Mind: Turn Off Your Noisy Thoughts and Get a Good Night's Sleep (excellent book IMO)

I've recorded the audio of many of these scripts to mp3 files and put them on an inexpensive MP3 player so I can listen without my phone.

My issue is usually secondary insomnia (waking up in the middle of the night with trouble getting back to sleep). This dings my REM sleep unless I do get back to sleep. I find it is more effective if I rotate "hacks."

[xactly]

I have been wearing an Oura ring for several years, and I've read Matt Walker's book, listened to all the podcasts and done many things to improve the quality of my sleep. My average total sleep is fine, and I have no trouble falling asleep. In fact, the ring complains about my low latency scores, assuming (incorrectly) that the reason I fall asleep so quickly is I must be overtired. I just think I'm just wired that way.

I have been interested in maintaining or increasing deep sleep because of its role in glymphatic clearance and staving off dementia. At 70 years old, my deep sleep was running about 53 minutes per night. I stumbled across "The Mind Illuminated: A Complete Meditation Guide Integrating Buddhist Wisdom and Brain Science for Greater Mindfulness" by John Yates. I began following Yates' instruction, and I was startled to see my deep sleep scores jump to what is now an average of 1 hr 20 minutes a night. I've even had three nights this month with 2 hours or more deep sleep.

I tried meditating for years using different apps and methods, but I never felt like I was getting anywhere. I bought this book after reading a number of rave reviews, and I finally feel like I am becoming an accomplished meditator. I had no idea that a solid meditation practice would have such a profound impact on deep sleep, so that is just icing on the cake.

I do have issues with secondary insomnia, so I appreciate the information Tincup provided, including the link to SusanJ's thread on how to get back to sleep. I have tried meditating to calm my overactive mind when I wake up in the middle of the night, and it helps; however, it can still take some time, especially if I'm worried about something. I am looking forward to trying Serial Diverse Imaging, which was described in the article referenced in SusanJ's thread. In fact, I'll be disappointed if I sleep through the night tonight and don't get to try it.

[mike]

I used to have an Aura ring, but was not able to get much deep sleep unless I did strenuous exercise the day before. Wasn't able to modify it otherwise, so gave up on wearing it. I'm curious if any of you guys testing deep sleep have seen a similar pattern? I have been tested to have sleep apnea, but I think it is more from my brainstem micro clot. I find that I sleep fine time-wise if I sleep on a wedge. I'm wondering whether deep sleep should happen every night, or more so when there is garbage to take out? Most folks are losing neurons as they age, and the remains need to be cleared. What if there is no neuron loss? Also, 4/4s are bad at taking out the garbage - maybe unless there is garbage in the "can" then there is no Deep Sleep?