Very bad sleep issues

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Chrisweides
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Re: Very bad sleep issues

Post by Chrisweides »

I just have to ask. Since three months, I experience severe to moderate insomnia. It doesnt seem its going to stop tomorrow. Tonight I got only two hours, often I get about 5, fragmented though. Is this dooming me? Or will my brain heal once this resolves?
51 years old. APO E3/4. Mother, grandmother and great grandmother had/are starting with dementia. Afflicted with anxiety disorder atm. Very eager to save brain and live a long healthy life. Grateful to you all for your knowledge and kindness!
NF52
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Re: Very bad sleep issues

Post by NF52 »

Chrisweides wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 8:27 pm I just have to ask. Since three months, I experience severe to moderate insomnia. It doesnt seem its going to stop tomorrow. Tonight I got only two hours, often I get about 5, fragmented though. Is this dooming me? Or will my brain heal once this resolves?
Hi again,
Your brain isn't broken and so doesn't have to "heal". When you were an infant you also didn't have a regular sleep pattern and your brain wasn't broken then either--it was just adjusting to a new reality--and now it is again.

Your brain is experiencing what MANY women do during perimenopause, and what many shift workers (who works nights and then shift to days) and many parents of infants and others know: loss of sleep makes us all feel sluggish and foggy and often anxious. Your brain is going to bounce back, so tell that voice in your head that predicts dark things to "This is a temporary situation and I am think about all the great things I will do when I am past this."

When you have 5 hours of sleep, celebrate it!! And ignore the days with 2 hours; your body will catch up.

Best,
Nancy
4/4 and still an optimist!
JD2020
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Re: Very bad sleep issues

Post by JD2020 »

Chrisweides wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 8:27 pm I just have to ask. Since three months, I experience severe to moderate insomnia. It doesnt seem its going to stop tomorrow. Tonight I got only two hours, often I get about 5, fragmented though. Is this dooming me? Or will my brain heal once this resolves?
The Oura ring is a sleep tracker, and I have found it to be very reassuring. My sleep issues were actually less intense than I thought. I have some family stress right now, and I've been sleeping badly. I would have told you that I was awake for at least 2 hours last night. Instead, it was fragmented sleep, with one period of about 30 - 45 minutes asleep. But, it confirmed that my sleep wasn't great. The point here is that I've learned a lot about my sleep and sleep quality and that my sleep is not as bad as I thought, even on a challenging night. Maybe you should get Oura. The other information that I found helpful is a book, "Why We Sleep". I thought it would be boring, but it is very readable. I learned a lot of reassuring information - mostly that I am not that unique and my body has evolved over a gazillion years to be able to sleep.
Chrisweides
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Re: Very bad sleep issues

Post by Chrisweides »

Thank you both. I have to say I am starting to feel desperate.

I have a sleep tracker, its telling me I got some deep sleep but all over, very fragmented and much too little. Indeed one usually gets more sleep than you think as long as you lie down.

I tried seroquel today and still couldnt sleep well. My cognition is really going too.

Does anyone know if seroquel poses an AD risk when taken at my age?
51 years old. APO E3/4. Mother, grandmother and great grandmother had/are starting with dementia. Afflicted with anxiety disorder atm. Very eager to save brain and live a long healthy life. Grateful to you all for your knowledge and kindness!
anne from california
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Re: Very bad sleep issues

Post by anne from california »

Hi Chris,

I haven't been here for awhile, but today am back because I need a kick in the backside to bring my eating habits back into line after what can only be described as a months-long sugar bender. It always helps to revisit the primer here.

I stopped at your post about sleep because sleep is a HUGE issue for me. I totally relate to everything you're describing, with the anxiety and doomsdaying and the hell that is the day after a two-hour-a-nighter. So my post here is mostly a "yeah, me, too" response and a show of solidarity!

Never has my sleep been as bad as it was a perimenopause. It wasn't just the bad sleep, but the anxiety and middle-of-the-night harpies about what was killing me, what was harming me, what mistakes I'd made in my life to 1) destroy my health, 2) destroy my children, 3) destroy my finances, 4) make people hate me after I died 5) ensure I would get Alzheimer's like my mother . . . you see the pattern. For me, in addition to bad sleep, perimenopause involved heavy bleeding and anemia; once I quit having periods, then came the hot flashes. All day, all night.

A word about my experience with hormone replacement: I so wish I could tolerate it, but multiple attempts have proven that I cannot. I might be ok if I could just do the estrogen, but because I still have a uterus, I also have to do the progesterone. I have been unable to tolerate any forms of progesterone. I even saw Dr. Ann Hathaway (hormone replacement expert) back when she still saw people for things other than just the Bredeson Protocol, to try and solve this problem, but even the options she proposed (vaginal instead of oral) failed me. It made me crazy at night. I had hallucinations and panic attacks. Oral was worse than vaginal, and both of those were worse than topical. But topical hadn't been studied enough to be considered safe; maybe that has changed? Also, sometimes the topical turned on me, too, and I'd have a horrible night. The real kicker was when I started bleeding again on bioidentical hormones, despite them being low-dose. That motivated my doctor to want to do endometrial biopsies all the time. I finally gave it all up. Hot flashes eventually calmed down, brain harpies receded--it's like my brain got used to the new normal.

Similar to my experience with progesterone, I cannot tolerate melatonin or magnesium threonate. It causes the same symptoms as the progesterone: hallucinations, panic. I discussed this with Dr. Hathaway, and her conclusion involved something to do with brain receptors. Her suggestion was I actually try and increase the dose--something about the smaller dose causing a paradoxical reaction--but she also was completely accurate when she said, "I imagine that would be a hard sell, given your reaction to the lower dose." Yep--not willing to attempt it. I don't react well to nighttime cold medications or any OTC sleep meds, either. And there is no way I would ever try any harder-core sleep medications. Not with my oversensitive brain.

So this leaves me with basically no supplement or pharmaceutical options for improving my sleep. Thus, I count down. A friend told me about her ironclad method for getting back to sleep when she wakes up and the harpies start in. She tells herself sternly, "Stay out of there. Let's count down," and she begins silently counting backward from 30, and it works nearly every time. For me, I have to start at 50, but it has helped a LOT. Apparently it's a method soldiers in combat have used. I don't know whether it would've worked for me at perimenopause, but it certainly couldn't have hurt to tell myself, "Annie, this is temporary, you're fine, let's count down." As someone else said, celebrate those five-hour nights, and try and ignore the two-hour ones. Really, this won't last forever. These days I actually get to rejoice in some eight-hour ones every once in awhile!
60 years old, ApoE 3/3, mother and grandmother have/had late-onset dementia, eager to save brain and optimize health.
Thank you all for sharing your knowledge!
Chrisweides
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Re: Very bad sleep issues

Post by Chrisweides »

Hello Anne,

Thank you for your kind and encouraging words. It is very good to hear people have been in the same situation and it got better. Night harpies, now thats a fitting expression. Mine keep telling me that the brain fog, cognition issues, heart palpitations, months of bad sleep and anxiety mean I will get this disease. But I am determined to prove them wrong, lol. I have a host of other issues too by now, anxiety is like weeds, it spreads like crazy.

Another kind person here told me she needed to take anti anxiety meds for awhile during these times, I’m looking into that although I have to say I don’t tolerate medication very well. Many times they make things worse or dont do what they are supposed to. I wonder if thats an E4 thing?

These last few nights I have noticed it’s actually my speeding heart that wakes me up and then I get my anxious thoughts. I have many times during the night when I am woken by a heartbeat of around 100 - and that is with taking betablockers! Although these have never worked properly for me.

I have started with hormone replacement and am going to see how it goes. I dont have to take progesterone but my doctor suggested it anyway since its supposed to promote sleep. Cant say I noticed that yet but its early days.

Counting is a very good technique. Thank you for suggesting it, I actually did already know and use it. I know another method counting down from 100 in threes so your mind is a bit occupied. In more or less normal times it helps.

When it gets very bad I have counted down from 1000 to zero and not fallen asleep. Thats not good. But at the moment, sometimes its really that bad.

What is it with 50 that makes us so anxious and worried at this age? Seeing your age, hearing from others and seeing I am going to hit it soon it must be some existential thing also besides hormones. I thought that was silly when I read something about us being wired to think deeply about life and what we need and want to change at this stage, but now I’ve got it, too.

The one good thing that may come of it provided it gets better is that now I have really woken up and try to actively prevent my cognitive decline with ageing insted of just waiting and seeing as for some reason (head in sand) I did before. Its a bit overwhelming and hard to decide what exactly to do besides exercise a lot (but not too hard since that will raise anxiety) and avoid sugar. I am glad I caught this while still being at the right age for hormone replacement which appears to be very helpful for E4s.

Best

Chris
51 years old. APO E3/4. Mother, grandmother and great grandmother had/are starting with dementia. Afflicted with anxiety disorder atm. Very eager to save brain and live a long healthy life. Grateful to you all for your knowledge and kindness!
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SusanJ
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Re: Very bad sleep issues

Post by SusanJ »

Chrisweides wrote:These last few nights I have noticed it’s actually my speeding heart that wakes me up and then I get my anxious thoughts.
Just curious, have you ruled out insulin resistance? IR can get worse at menopause. Your body puts out cortisol if your glucose levels drop too low, and can wake you in the middle of the night with a jolt and racing heart.

The other thing is sleep apnea. It can also wake you, and make your heart beat harder.

So even though your hormones are dropping, it may be some other issue that gets exacerbated with low estrogen / progesterone.

Hope you get it figured soon!
Last edited by SusanJ on Mon Jun 06, 2022 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Chrisweides
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Re: Very bad sleep issues

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Hello Susan,

I dont think I have. I’ll ask my doctor for testing that. As to sleep apnea, I have started to try and get that diagnosed, Its very hard where I live to get any doctor to do anything except say “its all in your mind“. Especially if you are a middle aged woman. I had normal bloodwork done which was ok.

Thank you! I have to be more insistent some doctor does more than throw sleeping pills and antidepressants at me. Those may help the symptoms but I dont think they can remove the cause.

Best

Chris
51 years old. APO E3/4. Mother, grandmother and great grandmother had/are starting with dementia. Afflicted with anxiety disorder atm. Very eager to save brain and live a long healthy life. Grateful to you all for your knowledge and kindness!
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