Food Restrictions Questions

[Jan18]

We are cautioned against eating refined carbs like breads and grains, starchy vegetables like white potatoes, grains, sugars along with dairy. I am going all the way back to the beginning of learning this protocol to ask for clarification. And maybe I'm so confused with what Gundry says and what Bredesen says. I thought Bredesen agreed with Gundry on foods (not including Gundry's new book, Breaking the Keto Code.)

I know they spike insulin and spiking insulin over and over is what leads to insulin resistance.

BUT....

Must we eliminate them completely and forever? Can't we see by Keto Mojo if they spike our insulin and if not, use them in moderation (for example, if used in small quantities, especially when paired with other foods that don't spike or actually lower insulin?)

Does this protocol mean never, ever again consuming any of those foods, or any with lectins, or any sweets? I have this mental picture from what people have said that they only ever eat nonstarchy vegetables, healthy fats (no butter, no MCT, no coconut, no cheeses, no foods with saturated fats) tiny amounts of only pastured eggs, chicken and fatty fish like salmon. Period. (Although I don't need clarification on fish, because I'd only eat salmon anyway. Not a fan of fish.)

I know I'm asking this AGAIN, but I have not gotten a clear picture of what this diet for life should look like. If it is that strict (as I described above) I don't think I can do it. Plus how can it be healthy to cut out beans, when beans and greens are the two things the Blue Zone diets have in common and I thought people in the Blue Zones not only lived longer, but also had lower incidences of AD. (And yes, I know there are other factors in Blue Zones communities, but diet is a big one and we can also replicate those other factors, like daily movement, socialization, etc.)

The Apollo website has all of those foods -- which I thought were expressly forbidden forever -- in a good number of its recipes! So what's the deal?

I apologize for my ongoing confusion and frustration with the diet protocol. It would be helpful if someone who is solidly on this protocol would post a typical week's worth of meals they eat to give us a better idea. I have asked these kinds of diet questions before, so I sincerely apologize if I have been given definitive answers and don't remember them. The amount of learning and tweaking and new information, along with the basics, is overwhelming to me at times.

[Lindy]

Jan18, I share your frustration. Trying to stay on a protocol when the chief proponents take different tacks is frustrating. Trying to keep up with the latest (varying) reports on supplements, pills, experts, etc. is exhausting and depressing for those of us who aren't experts and who have families and jobs to care for. My MD can't advise me as she doesn't have anyone to refer me to. I have thought about just giving up altogether. As far as I can see there is no clear path ahead so why bother.

[JD2020]

If I remember correctly, in the first book, Dr. Bredesen said that of the people he was treating, no one was doing the whole program perfectly. Food is just one part of it. I have also had a very hard time with the strict food protocol, as I have posted in the past. Based upon responses, I think that is the same for many people here. I do the best I can with the food, and I eat stuff that maybe I should not, but I regained 8 pounds and now I can fast for 15 - 16 hours a couple of times a week. But the other stuff.... my exercise is awesome! I'm doing a lot of meditation, but I've completely fallen off the wagon with Brain HQ. My sleep is better than I ever thought possible. I love my husband and children. Etc.

We all have different vulnerabilities, and our vulnerabilities will change as we age. I think we should all experiment, figure out what works for now, and do the best that we can do.

[NF52]

I apologize for my ongoing confusion and frustration with the diet protocol. It would be helpful if someone who is solidly on this protocol would post a typical week's worth of meals they eat to give us a better idea. I have asked these kinds of diet questions before, so I sincerely apologize if I have been given definitive answers and don't remember them. The amount of learning and tweaking and new information, along with the basics, is overwhelming to me at times.

....Trying to keep up with the latest (varying) reports on supplements, pills, experts, etc. is exhausting and depressing for those of us who aren't experts and who have families and jobs to care for... I have thought about just giving up altogether. As far as I can see there is no clear path ahead so why bother.

Jan18 and Lindy,

Thank you for your honesty in sharing feelings most, if not all of us, have had. We should never apologize for having questions. Our health and happiness may depend on our asking questions and believing that what works for one of us may not work for all of us.

One of the kindest and wisest voices I first found on this forum was Stavia's, when I came across her Primer. If a doctor with ApoE 4/4 who had fought her way back from two serious brain injuries could be hopeful--and occasionally eat pastries--maybe it was okay to be human and prone to err. Here's one of her posts from 2014 that resonates with me today more than ever--as a 71 year old who sees life as full of promise, even if the Blue Ridge Mountains within view serve as a reminder of possible challenges ahead.

Musings on ApoE4

I've seen what was once thought of as cutting edge disappear into obscurity.

I am not so arrogantly supportive of our current body of knowledge to think that...we now have certainty....

As this exploration proceeds, I feel we are still opening up tiny areas of the map. It is indeed less of an unknown continent that it was 5 or 50 or 500 years ago, but I feel that the vast majority of the landscape is still shrouded in darkness....I am but a companion in the health journey, sometimes as bewildered as the patient. Now I am in a situation where my own well-being is significantly threatened, and there are no broad highways to traverse. Instead, there are conflicting signs, there are snarling red-eyed beasts roaming dark forests of fear, there are quicksands of doubt and despair.

However, we do have to stand somewhere in this dark, uncertain, shifting landscape. I have hope that with time, more of the workings of our gene will become clear. And until then I have choices to make, so as not to be consumed by fear, doubt, despair or lost in depression.

So, for now, I choose a position of moderation, so as to give me flexibility to move as more information comes to light. I choose a position of standing back and trying to get a broad vantage of the whole landscape. I choose to walk in the fields of what we do know for certain. And I choose to celebrate what I have, every day - because today is still a good day.

Warm wishes to both of you to have reasons to celebrate. Nancy

[Jan18]

Jan18, I share your frustration. I have thought about just giving up altogether. As far as I can see there is no clear path ahead so why bother.

Hi Lindy! See Nancy's inspiration below, for one response.

And from me, I sometimes feel like giving up and fall off of the diet wagon (mostly because I was never a cook and it has been a daunting challenge not only to learn to cook, but to find recipes that don't contain forbidden foods on this protocol!) It has also been a challenge to find cardio that I can do with a knee that needs a replacement. I've been putting it off, because the first one I had done hung me up for over a year and it's tough to deal with that long rehab and constant pain. (And what, oh what am I going to do for pain this time? They all affect your brain!)

One huge frustration is to go to the Apollo website, which is supposed to be from Bredesen's mouth to our ears and see recipes on Apollo that look good, but lo, and behold, they have butter, coconut oil, MCT"S and other saturated fats we are NOT supposed to have since we aggressively oxidize them! I want to throw up my hands and ask, "WHY are you promoting recipes with the very things you caution us Apoe4's NOT to have?!"

But I always end up returning to the protocol and persevere, because the alternative to quit, after what we've learned from Bredesen and others, scares me. I hope you persevere, too. Feel the frustrations (don't bury them) and take it one step at a time, so it doesn't overwhelm you. Come here to ask for help when you can. You can PM me, too, if you need to vent and have your frustration validated.

After my frustration, I calm down and vow that I'm going to find the things that work for me. Just today I have decided to become vegetarian (because I think I can often sub olive oil for the butter in recipes) and include eggs, salmon, and small amounts of A2 dairy to be mindful of amino acids. So we'll see if this can work better for me. I thought I'd never be able to give up bread, but I rarely have it and when I do, it's authentic sourdough. I've given up grains, but I do include 1/4 c. of beans in some meals for fiber....I figure going lacto-ovo-vegetarian will help me up my fiber.

I hope my response helps. Don't give up on yourself!

Nancy's kind and supportive response is similar to other understanding and kind responses I've had on this forum for my despair.

[Jan18]

Thank you for your honesty in sharing feelings most, if not all of us, have had. We should never apologize for having questions. Our health and happiness may depend on our asking questions and believing that what works for one of us may not work for all of us.

Nancy,
So much gratitude for your gracious response! Thank you! Knowing I am not alone in my frustrations and that I am not judged for them is very supportive!

Hugs,
Jan 18

[Jan18]

If I remember correctly, in the first book, Dr. Bredesen said that of the people he was treating, no one was doing the whole program perfectly. Food is just one part of it. I have also had a very hard time with the strict food protocol, as I have posted in the past. Based upon responses, I think that is the same for many people here. I do the best I can with the food, and I eat stuff that maybe I should not, but I regained 8 pounds and now I can fast for 15 - 16 hours a couple of times a week. But the other stuff.... my exercise is awesome! I'm doing a lot of meditation, but I've completely fallen off the wagon with Brain HQ. My sleep is better than I ever thought possible. I love my husband and children. Etc.

We all have different vulnerabilities, and our vulnerabilities will change as we age. I think we should all experiment, figure out what works for now, and do the best that we can do.

JD2020,
Thanks for sharing your experiences and for the encouragement.

My frustration is in figuring out why I lost some weight, but cannot budge the rest I need to lose to be in a healthy range. Being overweight or obese is a big risk factor and correcting that is foremost of my goals. I've been tracking food on cronometer.com for years (admittedly falling off the wagon now and then...ugh) and I've got 16 hour daily fasts down pat. I am incorporating 1-2 24 hour fasts weekly now so see if that will help. I don't eat over 1200 calories....except when I land with a bump off that wagon. I meditate nightly and frequently throughout the day and love it. I do meditation walks in the mornings, but they are simply weight-bearing to prevent osteoporosis, since I can't walk fast enough to get into good cardio. I struggle with exercise, because of a needed knee replacement and I think that's important. So I do weight-training and am going to start -- oh, god -- "senior" chair cardio exercises, as everything else hurts my knee. (I am working with my doctor to figure out when to schedule a second knee replacement, but my first one took a year of pain to rehab and I still can have some pain with it, so not looking forward to losing another year. I keep putting it off.)

The diet issues and issues with sleep sometimes (partly due to stress with this new lifestyle and partly due to not making myself stick to a Circadian schedule, since I am retired) are my biggest frustrations -- along with exercise. It's not a fun thing to make yourself do weights and chair exercises alone at home every day. Would love a (Covid-safe) class in those to join, but there are none I've found. Tried a Silver Sneakers class and it was reckless!!! The instructor, a much younger and very fit woman, was having participants lift weights waaaay too fast to music. I could foresee lots of injuries. So I didn't go back to that one.

It has been suggested to me to test for mycotoxins, as I'm told that can stall weight loss. I lost about 30 pounds after I retired, which I attribute partly to reduction of stress -- I was a high school teacher, haha -- and partly for how much I've changed my diet so far. I've kept that off for years now. But another 25 or so would put me at ideal BMI.

Yes, we all have to figure out what works for us individually. It's just so darn frustrating not to get answers when you need them.

[JD2020]

Yes, we all have to figure out what works for us individually. It's just so darn frustrating not to get answers when you need them.

Hi Jan,

Yes, I have seen some of your other posts and remember especially one where you said that you were tired of people telling you that you must be eating more than you think. I get it now. Some people were telling me that I was undereating, so I downloaded chronometer as the first step in the process to make sure I was being honest with myself. I have a lot more understanding for people who want to lose weight. It was not comfortable gaining it, and I'm sure it is no fun trying to lose it. I have no suggestions for you on this part of your journey because your challenge is not my reality, except for something that Mercola wrote about. He said something about fasting too much causing cortisol spikes and said that he was changing his routine to reduce the total time he fasts each week. Maybe that is happening to you. Maybe your cortisol is spiking, making it hard to lose weight? I don't know - science was never my thing. It is just a thought.

But....there is something super-fun that you could do for yourself for weight-lifting, if you are interested. Tonal makes it fun! I've never liked weight lifting, and now I really enjoy it and look forward to it. I don't have to trek to the gym, wait for a piece of equipment, etc etc. This thing keeps track of where I am (17 pounds on each arm when doing single-leg RDLs) and when it is time to increase weight, it goes up 1 pound - so the increase is manageable. It is not like trying to increase a 5 pound weight to a 7.5 weight, which is a 50% increase - too much. Plus my daughter said that her bosses at the physical therapy clinic are adding a Tonal to the clinic, so I'll bet you could get instruction on exercises to do to help your knee. They have a million pre-recorded videos (upper, lower, core, HIIT, yoga, dance, recovery, etc) where the instructors remind you of good form so you don't hurt yourself.

It is pricey, but we were paying a fortune for a family membership at the local gym, and when all the gyms closed during Covid, I felt like my body was disappearing. Now, instead, we hike and do Tonal and it has paid for itself several times over.

[Jan18]

Yes, I have seen some of your other posts and remember especially one where you said that you were tired of people telling you that you must be eating more than you think. I get it now. Some people were telling me that I was undereating, so I downloaded chronometer as the first step in the process to make sure I was being honest with myself. I have a lot more understanding for people who want to lose weight.

Hi JD!
I appreciate your response. I'm reading more about fasting and watching more Jason Fong videos and getting some helpful ideas. He says to lose weight, vary the fasting (one way is like I am doing) as having a "routine" for a lengthy period causes the body to kind of "adapt". I didn't explain that really accurately, but that's the gist of why he recommends varying the fasting if one begins to have trouble still losing.

"But....there is something super-fun that you could do for yourself for weight-lifting, if you are interested. Tonal makes it fun! I've never liked weight lifting, and now I really enjoy it and look forward to it. I don't have to trek to the gym, wait for a piece of equipment, etc etc. This thing keeps track of where I am (17 pounds on each arm when doing single-leg RDLs) and when it is time to increase weight, it goes up 1 pound - so the increase is manageable. It is not like trying to increase a 5 pound weight to a 7.5 weight, which is a 50% increase - too much. Plus my daughter said that her bosses at the physical therapy clinic are adding a Tonal to the clinic, so I'll bet you could get instruction on exercises to do to help your knee. They have a million pre-recorded videos (upper, lower, core, HIIT, yoga, dance, recovery, etc) where the instructors remind you of good form so you don't hurt yourself."

Thank you for this idea! I will definitely check it out. I plan to get as strong as possible before this second knee replacement, as I do believe that was part of my issue with the first. That, and the fact that two prior surgeries on my. first knee 20 years before the replacement left me with a leg that couldn't fully straighten nor fully bend....it took a couple of years actually before I got more range of motion back than what I left with in physical therapy. But I feel so grateful that I got so much of it back, as my PT said sometimes the tendons and muscles just shorten without full use of them and won't come back.

It is so nice to have people here who understand and lend an ear and support! Thank you so much!

Jan 18

[JML]

One huge frustration is to go to the Apollo website, which is supposed to be from Bredesen's mouth to our ears and see recipes on Apollo that look good, but lo, and behold, they have butter, coconut oil, MCT"S and other saturated fats we are NOT supposed to have since we aggressively oxidize them! I want to throw up my hands and ask, "WHY are you promoting recipes with the very things you caution us Apoe4's NOT to have?!"

Hi Jan18--I understand your frustration. Remember that the best diet for you may be slightly different from the best diet for someone else. Your ideal diet will depend on genetics, activity, toxins, stress, sleep, gut health, etc. You have to find what works for you and ultimately leads to feeling better and sharper.

Not all Apollo members carry an ApoE4 allele, and for the Apollo members who are 3/3's, saturated fats like butter or coconut oil are not as big an issue as they might be for 4/4's. Substituting olive oil or avocado oil might be a better path for the ApoE4/4s. If you read the Apollo materials, they also recommend eating small amounts of beans if you are insulin sensitive. They are really good for providing prebiotic fiber.

People do go in and out of ketosis all the time. The key if you are trying to improve your diet might be to realize that every day is a new day. If you have a day when you eat poorly and not in alignment with your goals, you have not ruined everything! Grant yourself some grace and get back to healthier eating the next day. I have seen many people lose interest in sweet, carby foods if they can avoid them for 3-4 weeks. Hard to believe when you are just starting out, but it happens all the time.

Do you feel better or does your brain work better when you are in ketosis? Many (but not all) people find this to be true. Tracking your glucose and ketones can be helpful, as is tracking food intake on Cronometer.com. Unfortunately, I don't know of an easy way to track insulin at home (using glucose as a stand-in is not a perfect measure).

Poor sleep, high stress, exposure to mold toxins and other toxins can also make it harder to manage blood glucose. Consider optimizing these as well. Food is only one part of the big brain health puzzle. And no one eats perfectly every day.