Dha and lpc dha associated with worse AD progression??

Insights and discussion from the cutting edge with reference to journal articles and other research papers.
Post Reply
jnugent25
New User
New User
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2024 11:39 am

Dha and lpc dha associated with worse AD progression??

Post by jnugent25 »

I have been looking at ways to increase lpc dha which I thought would be neuroprotective but I came across this study that had a bad correlation between dha and AD progression only in people with apoe4. What should I make of this?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... cab085-B54
NF52
Support Team
Support Team
Posts: 3236
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:41 am
Location: Eastern U.S.

Re: Dha and lpc dha associated with worse AD progression??

Post by NF52 »

jnugent25 wrote: Sat Jan 06, 2024 11:42 am I have been looking at ways to increase lpc dha which I thought would be neuroprotective but I came across this study that had a bad correlation between dha and AD progression only in people with apoe4. What should I make of this?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... cab085-B54
Welcome to the forum!

From the NIH/PMC link you shared, I'm guessing you have explored lots of information about ApoE 4 and nutrition already, and have the intellectual chops and perseverance to make great decisions about how to best meet your individual needs. That's not idle praise; "intellectual challenge" and "cognitive reserve" are two factors consistently associated with strong resilience to the population-based estimates of risk of one or two copies of ApoE4. I think the short answer to your question about DHA is that it seems helpful, and our wiki on Fats, Omega -3(ω-3) & -6(ω-6), DHA and More may give you some other info on which to make a decision.

Here's a longer answer:
I was intrigued by this from your helpful link to APOE ε4 alters associations between docosahexaenoic acid and preclinical markers of Alzheimer’s disease:
This is a cross-sectional study examining the effect of APOE ε4 on DHA associations with entorhinal cortex volume, hippocampal volume and spatial navigation performance across two non-demented cohorts. ...Non-demented adults were drawn from the Cognitive Ageing, Nutrition and Neurogenesis study and formed Cohort 1.... homozygous APOE ε4 carriers (2% of the population) and APOE ε2 carriers (13% of the UK population) were excluded, due to their low population prevalence.
They excluded 15% of the population of the UK because of "low population prevalence"!

I've seen lots of studies that mix ApoE 2/4, 3/4 and 4/4, but none that exclude ApoE 4/4 and ApoE 2/2, 2/3 and 2/4!

Cohort 1 was from a contemporaneous study of DHA in people who passed detailed assessments for a diagnosis of MCI, or this group of "Subjective Memory Impairment", with an average age of 64, and memory complaints over the past 2-3 years. The Cognitive Ageing, Nutrition and Neurogenesis (CANN) trial: Design and progress "Subjective Memory Impairment" in people of that age has been shown to confer a modest risk of progression to MCI over 3-5 years. They are not a random sample of cogitively normal people living in the UK or Australia, where part of the study was done. And probably nothing like you!

Here's the limitations the authors of the two small studies cite in their article, which undercut it's relevance to a substantial degree in my view:
The findings produced in this study have the following limitations;
  • an important limitation is that more statistical power is required than for association testing, and thus false-negative results may be seen in smaller samples.
    • There were fewer ε4 carriers in Cohort 1, compared with Cohort 2, which may account for why in in APOE ε4 carriers we found a significant inverse association between DHA and navigation performance, but a null association between DHA and entorhinal−hippocampal brain volume.
    • (ii) the moderate sample sizes do not preclude the possibility that our findings could be observed by chance...
    • (iii)...we cannot directly relate the participants across Cohort 1 and 2...
    • (iv) Given the observational nature of the study, and that DHA (fish intake) is a component of an overall healthy diet,53 we cannot rule out the possibility...that the DHA-brain phenotype associations are attributable to other dietary factors.
I think they've found some interesting data, which they themselves admit has a lot of limitations. For comparison, Precision Nutrition for Alzheimer’s Prevention in ApoE4 Carriers is an article I personally found helpful, in case you are looking for other approaches for those of us with ApoE4.

You may have explored our forum already before posting, but here are some helpful hints from this veteran of struggling to find topics:
The Primer is written by Stavia, a practicing M.D. with ApoE4/4. It's a great place to see some strategies that you can consider--and she also recommends not trying to re-tool your entire life at once!

The How-To Guide has topics related to almost anything you could want to do or find.
The Wiki Main Page Index has a wealth of topics for someone who enjoys deep dives.

Two more tips to improve your experience here:
  • If you want to Search for posts on a specific topic, you can use the text box labeled "Search" right under your user name and enter those specific terms.
  • To be sure a forum member is notified of your post, just click use the large quotation mark icon in the upper right corner of they post.
I hope you share more links to more research and share your insights from your own experience as someone with ApoE4.

Nancy
4/4 and still an optimist!
jnugent25
New User
New User
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2024 11:39 am

Re: Dha and lpc dha associated with worse AD progression??

Post by jnugent25 »

Thanks for the response

I also had a question about the best way at the moment to get dha

It looks like lpc-dha is much better than dha for people with apoe4 however with krill oil it is really hard to get to 1-2g which they use in studies.

I read this study where they found crude lecithin can actually work with unbound dha

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... id%20(DHA).

I also saw that aker biomarine are developing a krill oil with a higher lpc dha percent and was wondering when that would be available and if it would be worth it

So should I supplement with lecithin and dha from fish or algae or lecithin and krill oil or what?

Thanks,
Jack
NF52
Support Team
Support Team
Posts: 3236
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:41 am
Location: Eastern U.S.

Re: Dha and lpc dha associated with worse AD progression??

Post by NF52 »

jnugent25 wrote: Sun Jan 07, 2024 12:06 am Thanks for the response

I also had a question about the best way at the moment to get dha

It looks like lpc-dha is much better than dha for people with apoe4 however with krill oil it is really hard to get to 1-2g which they use in studies.

I read this study where they found crude lecithin can actually work with unbound dha

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... id%20(DHA).

I also saw that aker biomarine are developing a krill oil with a higher lpc dha percent and was wondering when that would be available and if it would be worth it

So should I supplement with lecithin and dha from fish or algae or lecithin and krill oil or what?

Thanks,
Jack
Hi Jack,

Great question! Wish I had the answer, but this topic may be helpful: Why Krill Oil Beats Fish Oil If you want to post a question about Aker Marine or algae, etc on that forum, using the Quick Reply box at the bottom of each page, you might get replies from folks who have some in-depth experience.
BTW, you can search for topics or content using the Search text box right under your user name.
4/4 and still an optimist!
User avatar
Julie G
Mod
Mod
Posts: 9236
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:36 pm

Re: Dha and lpc dha associated with worse AD progression??

Post by Julie G »

I have been looking at ways to increase lpc dha which I thought would be neuroprotective but I came across this study that had a bad correlation between dha and AD progression only in people with apoe4. What should I make of this?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... cab085-B54
No one has the definitive answer to this conundrum. Many have noted that E4 carriers have an altered metabolism of omega-3s, specifically DHA. We appear to preferentially metabolize it leading many to suggest that we need more. This strategy should be applied cautiously however, as E4 carriers are also more prone to cerebral amyloid angiopathy predisposing us to brain bleeds. As a 4/4 with a predisposition to CAA, I've settled on 1 gram of high quality DHA and low mercury, wild-caught seafood 3-4 x per week.
NewRon
Senior Contributor
Senior Contributor
Posts: 459
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:04 am

Re: Dha and lpc dha associated with worse AD progression??

Post by NewRon »

Julie,

Is that 1 gram of DHA per day, each 3-4 days, or per week?
Apo E4/E4, Male, Age 61
User avatar
Julie G
Mod
Mod
Posts: 9236
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:36 pm

Re: Dha and lpc dha associated with worse AD progression??

Post by Julie G »

Is that 1 gram of DHA per day, each 3-4 days, or per week?
One gram per day (7 days a week) and seafood 3-4x per week. How much are you taking?
NewRon
Senior Contributor
Senior Contributor
Posts: 459
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:04 am

Re: Dha and lpc dha associated with worse AD progression??

Post by NewRon »

I take two or three softgels of the OmegaVia DHA 600 daily and seafood two to three times per week, usually.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Apo E4/E4, Male, Age 61
Quantifier
Contributor
Contributor
Posts: 127
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2021 3:48 pm

Re: Dha and lpc dha associated with worse AD progression??

Post by Quantifier »

jnugent25 wrote: Sat Jan 06, 2024 11:42 am I have been looking at ways to increase lpc dha which I thought would be neuroprotective but I came across this study that had a bad correlation between dha and AD progression only in people with apoe4. What should I make of this?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... cab085-B54
There may be an interaction between omega3 fatty acids and homocysteine with regard to brain health.

See for example https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9464144/ If one of the main effects of DHA on cognition is to make B-vitamins more effective in the brain they can only be protective if B vitamin intake is at a level sufficient to reduce homocysteine to less harmful levels.
User avatar
Julie G
Mod
Mod
Posts: 9236
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2013 6:36 pm

Re: Dha and lpc dha associated with worse AD progression??

Post by Julie G »

There may be an interaction between omega3 fatty acids and homocysteine with regard to brain health.

See for example https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9464144/ If one of the main effects of DHA on cognition is to make B-vitamins more effective in the brain they can only be protective if B vitamin intake is at a level sufficient to reduce homocysteine to less harmful levels.
Yes, great reminder. This builds on the earlier work from David Smith and Helga Refsum: Homocysteine Status Modifies the Treatment Effect of Omega-3 Fatty Acids on Cognition in a Randomized Clinical Trial in Mild to Moderate Alzheimer's Disease: The OmegAD Study.
Post Reply